Christopher Columbus was a dick but he was less of a dick than the aztec empire. Enough said.
@BlazingBowman, The Aztecs were intelligent. They would have made something great. Instead there’s now a wasteland known as Mexico.
@Click to toggle, you realize they killed, raped, pillaged, and ripped the hearts out of people for their stupid ass sungod right? They litterally cut a slit just under the ribs and stuck their hands underneath the ribs and ripped their still beating heart out. But oh Christopher Columbus was bad because he rallied local tribes to kill them because they were tired of being raped, enslaved, pillaged, and sacrificed.
@BlazingBowman, The stuff happening on that same land right now is much worse. Cartels do things no human can imagine. And Columbus’s men killed and rapped natives as well.
@BlazingBowman, you do realize that Columbus and his crew did all of that except for the heart part just because he thought his people were the better people, right?
@Click to toggle, so you agree that people are horrible and to pick out any one group as especially horrible in history is rediculous.
@Samtuttle, its why i said Columbus was bad but the aztecs were worse.
@BlazingBowman, Christopher Colombus didn’t do any of that, he was too busy enslaving and exterminating the Taínos in the Carribean. Hernán Cortés was the conquistador responsible for the fall of the Aztec Empire. Check your facts next time.
@BlazingBowman, Ah yes, one singular man was better than an entire empire distorted by extremist values and beliefs. Whats next, are we gonna talk about how Hitler’s Nazi party was worse than Christopher Columbus, thus Columbus is excused from his bad deeds and its good to celebrate him? Or maybe we should make another pointless comparison with the Red army of Stalin?
Columbus was bad for many more reasons than pitting tribes to fight against each other. Lets not make disingenuous arguments here.
@airguitarpro, just pointing out a fact. If you compare the actions of christopher columbus he is not as bad as some of the people. Whats the point in ignoring the aztecs crimes against humanity and only condemning Columbus. If were gonna look at the man and his deeds lets get the whole picture shall we.
So basically whats the point in ignoring the atrocities the aztecs commited.
@Kyroll, dude thats middle school level history that he rallied tribes that had been oppressed by the aztecs as a force against them.
And no i very much doubt the taino were saints who didnt do nuffin either. They probably raped killed and destroyed several smaller tribes gathering their territory.
@BlazingBowman, I don’t understand how pointing out the atrocities that Columbus committed to the native Americans suddenly means that we are ignoring the Aztecs and the crimes they have committed. I guess we shouldn’t talk about Hitler and the crimes he has committed since that would be ignoring the pillaging and crimes that Genghis Kahn has committed over his life time. In fact, by your logic, we should never speak of another person’s crimes as that would be ignoring the crimes of everyone else who has committed a crime in the past. Its faulty logic and doesn’t do much to facilitate a conversation.
@airguitarpro, close but its you whos talking about hitler without the jews in this scenario.
@BlazingBowman, I can talk about any figure or group of people from history in relation to the slippery slope that your comment entails. We can talk about the crusades, the Japanese internment camps, the mongols, or any other group of people who are have left their stains in history if it’d make you feel better. The point is that you cannot just say “thing A who did bad things means thing B who also did bad things is ignored.” Its a logical fallacy.
Notice how we don’t have a national holiday to celebrate the aztecs and how great they were. Notice how no country does. Your point is moot and its disingenuous. Thats all I’m saying.
@BlazingBowman, to be fair, the Aztecs thought the world would literally end if they didn't do that stuff. Columbus and his men did all the same things just because they felt like it.
@Marida Cruz, whats your point people litterally thought witches were sucking satans dick. Doesnt mean what they did was morally right. And doesnt really justify their actions.
@airguitarpro, i mean you really cant talk about Columbus without talking about the aztecs and the other natives. Like i said its like trying to talk about hitler without the jews, or like you said the crusades without isreal. Youre not getting the full picture. Is all im saying.
@BlazingBowman, I'm not saying it makes it morally right, I'm just saying it makes what Columbus and his men were doing much more reprehensible by comparison. A greater of two evils, if you will. It's also worth noting that the conquistadors who wiped out the Aztecs did all the same thinks that Columbus and his men did with the addition of intentional genocide and looting.
@Marida Cruz, columbus had his own "noble" reasoning for himself aswell. Everyones the hero of their own stories.
@BlazingBowman, Columbus didn't even remotely have a noble reason for doing anything that he did, except arguably his desire to discover a route to India, which is something that somebody else had actually already done at that point, and more efficiently than he had. His reasons for absolutely everything else he did were most likely selfish in nature, and his men's reasons for what they did are almost certainly selfish in nature.
@BlazingBowman, I understand the full picture. I understand the Aztecs impact in history during that time period. The discussion is not about the impact of the Aztecs though, it’s about Christopher Columbus. If this was a pic about the Aztecs committing ritualistic murders and having kids head’s rolled down a flight of stone stairs, then I would hope people wouldn’t say “well, the aztecs were dicks, but they were less of a dick than Christopher Colombus. Enough said.” As if that means the Aztecs are somewhat cleared of their actions. You can totally focus on one and not the other, even if there is some overlap. It’s silly to say you cannot. How do you think venn diagrams work?
@Marida Cruz, sure he prolly justified to himself something like this. Wow i tought these backwards savages who sacrifice people to satan the glories of christianity, united them under the good christian kings of spain , and taught them modern ideas of sanitation.
@airguitarpro, yes we are talking about christopher columbus. Aztecs are absolutely a part of that conversation. Dont pretend otherwise.
@airguitarpro, how is it silly to say you cant talk about one thing and not the other? Columbus's story is intertwined with the aztecs. You litterally have to gloss over a giant part of his story in order not to talk about the aztecs. Why do you get so defensive when i mention that the aztecs were not perfect little angels. What even is the point of this argument what do you object to in my statement? It seems to me you got offended on the behalf of the aztecs for no good reason.
@BlazingBowman, You’ve really twisted the narrative and my words. It’s kind of funny to see how you’ll go so far to do so. When did I ever say the Aztecs were good? Tell me. Please. I find this conversation highly symbolic of you, your maturity, and your credibility, as you don’t even know what you’re arguing about nor my points against you, yet you still argue for arguments sake. You heavily implied that Christopher Columbus can be excused for his atrocities because the Aztecs did bad things too and they both impacted Native Americans. I’m saying that is a slippery slope and that the two can’t even compare to each other for many reasons (one is an empire the other is an individual, Aztecs and Columbus had very different effects on the natives and towards different tribes of natives, etc.) and the actions of the Aztecs do not in any way excuse Columbus for what he did. So now are you done having a fake argument with yourself with me as your proxy, as you often do to others, or what?
@airguitarpro, how can you accuse me of not knowing what im arguing for when youve been accusing me of defending christopher columbus this entire time. Something i have not done. But whatever im done with you putting words in my mouth. Have a nice day.
@BlazingBowman, I’m going to leave it at this. From your original post: “Christopher Columbus was a dick but he was less of a dick than the aztec empire. Enough said”
From your first reply to @Click to toggle
“... But oh Christopher Columbus was bad because he rallied local tribes to...”
Specifically, in those two comments, you are heavily downplaying the massive effects of Christopher Columbus on the native Americans. That is not me putting words in your mouth. Granted you clearly said he was a dick, but to me, and clearly many others based on the volume of replies you got, your response was laden with sarcasm. This manner of argument is often used as deflection to ignore or excuse the central argument: Christopher Columbus did messed up things to the Native Americans and exploited them for his own gain, which is why WE as a modern society should not have a day dedicated to celebrating him, calling it Columbus Day
@BlazingBowman, Do you research or fact check anything you say or do you just talk out of your as$? Just google Taínos, or better yet just Wiki it, it’s researched and made so simple that even someone like you can comprehend. See if your views of Columbus change.
Or keep arguing with everyone until they realize they can’t win in an argument with an imbecile.
Because the natives were so peaceful and not constantly fighting with eachother before the Europeans crossed the Atlantic and won the fight.
@ORGANIC, there is a notable difference between groups warring and having skirmishes, and just having a more advanced group pushing them out and or slaughtering them.
@ThePandaPool , Tell that to the dominant Island Civilization that ruins my civ games
@Big Broder, tell that to the Emus in Australia.
@ThePandaPool , survival of the fittest
@ThePandaPool , i mean not really.
@Big Broder, if you think civ games are even remotely realistic, then perhaps you should have a chat with my good friend Ghandi.
@BlazingBowman, but there is. That's why "war" and "genocide" are two completely different words.
@Big Broder, oh that's fvcking funny.
@ThePandaPool , and that difference isnt a tech difference.
@ThePandaPool , you think the native Americans weren’t doing that? That’s literally what everybody did for thousands of years. Sure we can sit here hundreds of years later and say that’s morally wrong but that was the norm back then. Every civilization still standing today started with conquest.
@Jolee Bindo, Yeah no shjt. But we’re saying to stop glorifying Chris Columbus. He has a goddamn holiday named after him. We should not have holidays for genocidal maniacs. You can say ‘natives bad’ all you want, but it’s irrelevant to what we’re saying.
Hell Columbus wasn’t the first to discover the Americas and he didn’t even discover the current land of the United States. It’s mind blowingly dumb that we still celebrate him considering was evil and didn’t even do the thing we’re celebrating him for.
@K1l, It's obvious you don't have a clue about what you're talking about, I suggest you at least wiki Columbus before saying cringy stuff life this
@Redzone, What did I say that was incorrect?
-Columbus landed in the Bahamas, he never set foot anywhere near the current U.S mainland territory
-He enslaved the native Taino people and punished them horribly, specifically mutilation, amputation and death.
-The Taino people were completely wiped out of existence within decades after his arrival
-He was arrested by the Spanish government for mistreatment of Spanish colonists, specifically flogging and executions without a trial, which he admitted to doing
@K1l, and the taino didnt do this sh!t the taino were just innocent good bois who didnt do nuffin.
@ Mr Cuymenq, That was caused by farmland reducing the emus land
@BlazingBowman, Oh Christ, get out of here with that. That argument is completely pointless. When you point out humanitarian crimes you don’t decide whether or not that person is bad or not based on how good or not the victims were. They could’ve been total pieces of shjt, but that doesn’t make him any less of an asshole.
From the information I’ve found while researching, historians believe that the Taino were a pretty peaceful type of people.
Regardless of that, what Columbus did was awful and I’m saying that he shouldn’t be celebrated for it. Whatever the Taino may or may not have done, it doesnt justify Columbus’ actions. He enslaved, brutally mistreated and basically wiped out an entire population of human beings. Men, women and children. No group of people deserve that. I can’t believe I have to explain that mass enslavement/murder is bad.
If it were war, that’s kind of a different story, but it was very brutal conquest. The man who headed that shouldnt be celebrated.
@K1l, of course a person or groups actions are completely relevant when it comes to their ultimate fate. By that logic you can say something like
Regardless of what the nazis were doing it doesnt justify the u.s, canada, brittain, and russia attacking them and killing millions of those poor nazis. I care significantly less when a pedophile or a gifter is tortured to death than when a normal dude is killed.
@BlazingBowman, That’s completely different and you’re totally missing the point. The Allies did not enslave and commit mass murder on all Germans, men women and children; they fought the Nazi soldiers to prevent a widespread takeover of mankind. And I already stated that war and conquest are completely different. The allies fought the Nazis to prevent genocide and enslavement. Columbus is way more comparable to the Nazis considering he commited mass murder and enslavement.
Besides, the Taino were considered to be a peaceful population. Columbus came in and took advantage of them because of his greed and made them mine/find gold. It’s not like he was fighting back to protect himself and only going after the bad guys. He enslaved and caused mass death of a population of 200,000+ native people who were considered to be peaceful.
I like how you just assumed the Taino were bad just for arguments sake, clearly without having any knowledge on them.
@K1l, one there is no or very little difference between war and conquest.
Two i very much doubt they were a peaceful people. Back then there was no such thing. Probably wiped out dozens of smaller tribes to take the land they held.
Sounds like you missed my point. The point wasnt the extent of their crimes but the fact that you cant ignore the nuances of a situation.
@BlazingBowman, Again, you’re making assumptions about the people for arguments sake. The Taino were known as a peacful group. Hell I’m not even going to say group, it was a whole united civilization of hundreds of thousands of people.
Regardless of what their ancestors were like, the population was peaceful as a whole. The name “Taíno” even translates to “peaceful”.
Columbus came in as a foreigner, enslaved an entire civilization, forced them to mine the ores of their own land which he used for his own profit. He treated them so badly that the population dropped by over 90% within decades after his arrival. The Taino people were often mutilated, amputed and put to death for not doing their job well and or revolting. Tens of thousands of Taino in slavery commited suicide because conditions were so bad.
Were the Taino people flawless and the kindest humans in history? I doubt it, but can’t you admit that what Columbus did is extremely fvcked up?
@K1l, i never said what he did wasnt. Im just tired of this noble savage narrative.
I did a quick wikipedia check in the taino not only were the spread out on cuba and other islands ( yeah im really gonna believe they were the first on those islands and didnt rape and kill and enslave like literally every other tribal group to have ever existed ever )but theyre not even extinct.
1. I didn’t say they were extinct. In the last comment I specifically said that their population dropped by 90%, which yes isn’t extinct, but that’s a very large, significant drop.
2. Again, it’s unfair to blame the Taino at the time for the actions of their ancestors. Before Columbus came along, they had held that land already for quite a while. The specific living Taino that Columbus enslaved had committed no such actions that justified their entire population to be enslaved and massacred.
3. Regardless of what the Taino may or may not have done, it does not remotely make anything that Columbus did any less bad. Let’s say that the Taino of the time did commit mass enslavement/murder/rape etc. How does that make Columbus’ actions any less bad? Columbus enslaved an entire population. Even if the Taino had awful leaders and soliders, the majority of most civilizations are innocents. Out of 200,000+ people he enslaved and or killed, there are a lot of innocents.
@K1l, I never said it justified his actions all im saying is lets not pretend they were good forest folk who talked to the trees and danced with the wind never commiting a single crime or knowing of sin until that white devil came around. And here you go again trying to make the same claim that they wuz good bois who didnt do nuffin. Fvck of with that retarded bullsh!t.
@K1l, youre pointing out Columbus's crimes fair enough. Im just pointing out those tribes werent sinless either.
You clearly know nothing of this specific civilization. You’re entire basis is an assumption that they were bad. Every single civilization ever has a bad history behind it of course, but the Taino people were at the time, a peaceful people. The name Taíno even means “peaceful”. They named themselves that to separate themselves from a neighboring civilization that they found to be too violent.
Hell, Columbus HIMSELF wrote in his journal that the Taino people were very civil. “They will give all that they do possess for anything that is given to them, exchanging things even for bits of broken crockery. They were very well built, with very handsome bodies and very good faces....They do not carry arms or know them....They should be good servants.”
And this has nothing to do with “white devils”. This isn’t a race thing, it’s a “we shouldn’t celebrate figures in history who are known to have committed crimes against humanity” kinda deal.
@BlazingBowman, Many tribes all across the Americas could be just as brutal as any European military. All around the world, pieces of garabage have done horrible things all over. As I just said, the Native tribes of the Americas were not exempt from that. However, that doesn’t mean that they were all like that.
The Taino tribe were known at the time to be civil, as Columbus himself knew. The entire basis of his actions was based upon the fact that he knew they could take advantage of the natives and exploit their resources because of how peacful they were and lacked a militant side.
@K1l, congrats you agree with me. All people and humans are garbage. No ones special.
@K1l, there ya go again. They wuz good boys. They frolicked with the wind. Lived in the trees and knew of no sin. Dey wuz kangs and sheet until the white devil showed up. This historical narrative is litterally retarded and you know it.
@K1l, also i just read a little more of that wikipedia article the were at conflict with the island of caribs. So youve just sat here and lied to me for the past day. Im fvcking done. No no the wuz peaceful.
@BlazingBowman, This isn’t some type of narrative. The Taino people were historically known to be peacful. It would be a narrative if I said that all indigenous tribes of the Americas were non-violent but that’s not what I am saying, I’m addressing specifically the Taino.
Yes, they were at conflict with the Island Caribs, but that doesn’t make them any less peacful. The conflict with the Caribs came from the fact that the Caribs were an agressive tribe who often tried to invade the Taino. The only conflict the Taino had with them was while defending themselves from outside attacks from the Caribs. A civilization can have conflict while still being civil, the analysis of the conflict has shown that the Caribs were the agressors and the Taino were merely protecting themselves.
The Carib tribes were big on warfare and even performed cannibalistic rituals. The Taino were big on religion and peace. The Taino seperated themselves from the Caribs because of the Stark contrast of culture
@BlazingBowman, Im not just blurting out that the Taino were peacful for arguments sake. It’s just that they factually were. That is obviously not true for all indigenous tribes, as I just demonstrated that the neighboring civilization of the Island Caribs was agressive. Like any other populations all around the world, there are violent and peacful civilizations. The Taino were one of the peacful ones and I don’t understand why you refuse to accept that, despite the fact that historians know it to be true. Even Columbus said they were hospitable and civl people.
Columbus took advantage of the Taino tribe because they didn’t have much of a militant side to retaliate.
@K1l, I wouldn’t bother trying to argue with him. For someone who preaches the consequences of “not knowing the full story” he C L E A R L Y cherry picks his arguments to the point of absurdity and remains purposefully ignorant so long as it fits his preconceived narrative. I’ve gotten the vibe from him over the months of seeing his diatribes and arguments with others that he is not someone who is willing to even acknowledge another opinion that differs from his. To say you lied to him about a tribe being peaceful because they were “in conflict” with another tribe is hilariously immature and grossly mischaracterizes what “in conflict” means.
@K1l, your not gonna get me to believe they were a wholly innocent tribe. Who knew of no evil. The fact is all humans are evil. Every human does fvcked up sh!t. I dont care if columbus did fvcked up sh!t to them. My point never was that colombus was some angel who didnt do nuffin. I merely pointed out that taino are by no means innocent people who knew no evil. The narrative comes from how defensive you got just by me mentioning this indisputable fact on humanity.
@airguitarpro, how have i cherry picked my argument. My one and only stance on this discussion between you and k1l is that the natives werent perfect angels. Thats it.
@BlazingBowman, Your original comment was solely about comparing the atrocities of Christopher Columbus and the crimes of the Aztec empire. You downplayed Christopher Columbus’s role in the destruction of the Native American tribes citing that the Aztecs were worse. Regardless of the subjectivity behind that statement, that does not AT all excuse the actions of Christopher Columbus nor the original point of “why do we have a day named after him and celebrate it?”
@BlazingBowman, I can’t keep up this argument with you if you can’t even keep up with yourself and what you have said. Goodbye.
@BlazingBowman, You could apply that argument to any group of people. It’s such a ridiculous attempt at discrediting an enitre civilization.
You could say that “yeah, Hitler may have killed a bunch of Jews, but the Jews weren’t all goody goody.” Like yeah of course all the Jewish people werent perfect but Jesus Christ, that doesn’t make what happened to them any less bad. It’s the exact same situation.
Im sure the Taino weren’t perfect, but cmon dude. Their known history is fairly clean, but even if it wasnt, so what? It was an entire civilization of people, upwards of 200,000, probably a lot more. You know how many innocent people are included in that number? Innocent men women and CHILDREN?! It’s absolutely ridiculous to equate the actions of what maybe possibly a handful of their people did to the entire civilization. What happened to them is a tragedy, no less.
@K1l, thank you were finally on the same page. All civilization are inherently evil because all humans are inherently evil. Some more than others. I will extend an olive branch though. The taino are not as evil as other civilizations based on your descriptions.
@airguitarpro, yeah i pointed out that christopher columbus wasnt as evil as the aztecs.... how does that contradict what im saying. Just because christopher columbus isnt as evil as the aztecs doesnt mean i support him. Have a nice day i hope you wont jump to conclusions in your next discussion.
@BlazingBowman, the whole point is that bringing up the Aztecs in the context of this debate was completely pointless, and was just a distraction from the conversation around Columbus. Nobody here said the Aztecs werent bad. It’s irrelevant to this conversation. Columbus never interacted with the Aztecs and didn’t even know they existed, since they were on the North American mainland of what became Mexico, which Columbus never set foot on.
This picture and thread is specifically addressing Columbus and the debate that we shouldn’t have a holiday celebrating him, so bringing up the Aztecs was completely out of left field.
@K1l, oops totally mixed up aztecs with mayans. Forgive me its been 14 years since ive studied latin american histroy. But on another note why do you even care? What does it matter to you? What does it matter if i decide to bring up even something like the teletubies thats my choice.
@BlazingBowman, Because it’s a distraction from the conversation we’re trying to have - that Columbus shouldn’t be celebrated.
Whether or not it’s your intention, bringing up the Aztecs is an attempt to belittle Columbus’ actions by bringing up a completely separate case. You can’t seem to just let people say that Columbus was bad without having to jump in and try to make it a competition of who’s worse.
It would be like someone saying “fvck Osama Bin Laden” and then someone else going “Well, Hitler was even worse”. Irrelevant to the topic at hand, and only trying to make the former seem not as bad in comparison to the latter.
@K1l, i mean isnt it your choice to get distracted? You didnt have to reply. We didnt have to be here three days later. Yet here we are. This entire conversation has been pointless i see that now. Have a nice day dude. Thx for the history lesson.
*modern people look back and say "Get Good"
saying 'fūčķ you' to my man Chris is not going get you anywhere but the laughing stock. he's long dead and what was the planned impact anyway? every american instantly commits suppeku or something?
Is it second place when it was no contest?
Christopher Columbus straight up massacred and enslaved the Taino population of the Caribbean. The Taínos were described as peaceful and welcoming people. I really don’t have much sympathy for Christopher Columbus
Columbus didnt even step foot in the mainland. People think they are so woke but forget to criticize the actual conquistadors who actually killed people like Cortez, Pizarro, etc. Hate them, not Columbus.
@Velocitaptor, don’t go asking for a nuanced approach to history. We don’t do that. If it’s not reductionistic and parsed into a modern moral framework, it’s proof that you’re racist.
Do you really want to be racist? ‘Cause you’re a racist now. Hope you’re happy.
@Velocitaptor, Columbus exterminated and enslaved the Taino native population of the Caribbean. If production quotas were no met, he cut off the hands of the natives and execution, and used torture, dismemberment, and brutal massacre to discourage rebellion from the natives. He was an absolute piece of sh!t. And your correct, the conquistadors were just as horrible as he was
@JC839, big if true
This meme is absolutely retarted.
Imagine a jew saying “fvck Hitler” and then someone made this meme.
@K1l, woah woah lets not make that comparison now, intentional mass genocide with conquest (which has occurred in pretty much every settled area) are not the same thing. Conquest was brutal but it is daft to compare the two
@madeyoulook2, Conquest is not morally superior to genocide in any form. Chris Columbus enslaved and virtually wiped out an entire population of around 200,000+ natives. Hitler wins in pure numbers, but Columbus was awful.
Alright, I’ll admit that Hitler was worse, but my analogy is still valid. What Columbus did was on a smaller scale, but it was still a very large event. Someone doesn’t have to be worse than Hitler to not have a holiday dedicated to them.
@K1l, I bet you're fun at parties
@K1l, conquest often results in the cultures being conqured being consumed. Whats your point.
The comments are cringier than the actual meme. We have a sick imperialistic mind and it shows.
Why can’t we all just acknowledge that colonialism is a bad thing
Well he did fvck a lot of natives soooo
Vikings made it first