So does the USA military- source in the armed forces
@killrmuskrat , yeah, but in Germany they don't get dishonorably discharged for doing that, especially if it was a questionable order
@angrydwarf, you don't get a dishonorable discharge if you do that, you just refuse the order. Every serviceman has the right to refuse a direct order that violates the LOAC
@killrmuskrat , yeah, and if it WAS a questionable order, you get dishonorably discharged to cover it up. My step dad's brother had that happen to him because he was told to take off his US flag and replace it with a NATO flag and he was told to take orders from a French colonel. He would have done everything, except for the flag, and he got discharged, and almost lost his benefits because of it, he only kept them because he was a 3 tour veteran with no marks on his name
@angrydwarf, your right military brat you obviously know everything there is to know about the military.
@killrmuskrat , #triggered
@killrmuskrat , not necessarily human dignity but, illegal or immoral yes
@angrydwarf, as a Marine that would be a lawful order if the compound fell under un control. As he was under command from a French officer then it was a joint operation. I'm a patriot to the core but that was probably not an unlawful order.
@that crazy Marine, it wasn't even a big deal, all he wanted was to keep his Velcro US flag on instead of the UN flag. And he got discharged because he wouldnt take of his American flag, he didn't want to because loved his country
@angrydwarf, i understand the feeling behind it but he was operating under the UN forces at the time. Unit cohesion is important. I'm not an expert on it by any means, Marines don't wear us flags on their uniforms.
@angrydwarf, changing the flag isn't a morally questionable order... I get where he was coming from, that isn't the type of order this is talking about. In addition I would be willing to bet there is written policy on the issue out are talking about
@angrydwarf, yeah and I am sure no one in the German army has ever done similar to cover up an order either. Funny they have the same rule but you act like the Americans would be the only ones trying to violate it or cover it up
@angrydwarf, I also have a hard time believing he was discharged "just" for that that would be something you might get reprimanded for or even confined to quarters unless it was at the end of a list of other offenses
@Mkb617, dude, look at our politicians and tell me if you think we are the number one breaker of that rule out of all the countries that have it. I never said we were the only ones, but we are the only country trying to get into everyone else's business and we send troops everywhere to do stuff we shouldn't even be doing. If they were allowed to question orders then why have we gone to Iraq 3 times? For no good reason. And yet no one in the military higher up refuses or questions it
@Mkb617, he refused the direct order of a colonel, his and the UN, and no matter what he wouldnt take the patch off because he thought it went against his patriotism. He had no other offenses
@angrydwarf, I wasn't comparing our politicians to any others. This post started out with the fact that the Germans have a rule. Someone said Americans do too. Then you said well yeah but we have bad guys that break it. Yes we may break it more but that doesn't change the fact that we have it. And believe me there are good and bad everywhere. You hear about it more here because we live here
@Mkb617, my buddy is a reservist with the Heer over there and if his captain decides that doing a drill that would make them lose their dignity, such as making them do maintenance on their tanks in the rain or change tracks while it's raining during exercises, he can and will tell them to get umbrellas if it HAS to be done then, and if I'd doesn't, they wait for the rain to go away.
@Mkb617, I might have gotten off my point or not made it clear, but I'm not talking about questionable orders, the German rule in the pictures is about people's dignity being affected by orders, and that rule doesn't happen here even though we still technically have it.
@Mkb617, he is a loader on a Leo 2a6 btw
@angrydwarf, changing ur flag to a neutral alliance flag isnt messing with your human dignity
@angrydwarf, so are you claiming being asked to change the US flag to a UN flag was a violation of his human dignity?
@angrydwarf, you base your statement on your opinion, not on facts. US service members are taught that they must refuse an unlawful order. Recent examples include My Lai massacre in Vietnam, or Guantanamo Bay abuses. In the case you mention, the US often works with NATO or coalition partners. In that case all nations wear the coalition patch, and report to senior officer. Happened all the time in ww1, ww2, Korea, and current conflicts. Your relative was wrong, and earned his punishment.
@angrydwarf, you have no idea about the US military and its rules, goodbye.
@angrydwarf, I don't get how doing something in rain would affect dignity. It makes sense to wait for lack of rain or use umbrellas unless of course it is training to do it in the rain unless you always expect war to be nice and sunny
@killrmuskrat , I would assume this holds true for all countries compliant to the Geneva Convention.
By the way, when you say source in the armed forces, do you mean yourself? If so, thanks for your service.
@The New Night Guard, Yes, basically the point I was trying to make. And yes I serve currently.
@killrmuskrat , Which branch and what do you do?
@The New Night Guard, USAF crew chief, stationed in Japan
@killrmuskrat , Cool. Sounds like a fun place to be stationed.
@angrydwarf, I also like the line about we are the only country trying to get into others business right after talking about your friend and nato... Is nato a group of other countries... And aren't they getting into others business?
@angrydwarf, he wasn't dishonorably discharged because of that. He was discharged because in that instance he demonstrated the inability to follow basic orders. There are much more important things on the line than the flag he wears. The reason they remove their flags and replace with NATO is because operations in foreign countries require a lack of identity to ones country. By wearing the US flag, he could be identified as a rogue soldier or, even worse, the country could have grounds to claim the US unlawfully entered their country without NATO consent (since they would never allow any troops to wear their own flag in place of a NATO one), plus, the unity principle is it helps make their intentions known. It distincts those operator under their own countries orders and those operating under natos.
So, yes, he was rightfully discharged to avoid all of these issues. If he can't handle a simple order like that in a non-combat scenario, he's only going to cause trouble.
@Scotch Pilgrim, it want a NATO operation, it was a joint operation that NATO was participating in, however he was in a unit assigned to assist the NATO troops
@angrydwarf, that doesn't make a difference. You know what I believe goes beyond patriotism? The desire to help humanity. Unless he had an issue with a specific operation he was assigned to, there's no reason he needed to disobey the order to wear the proper attire. The military requires very specific orders to be followed. It wasn't a matter of preserving the dignity of the human race or his fellow troops, he just didn't like the idea of not displaying his country of origin in a joint operation requiring care to detail and cooperation. Its a flag now, but later disobeying a tiny order that isn't even a unlawful request can cause injuries or death
@Scotch Pilgrim, he was there to represent the united States, not the UN, and he wanted to show that
@Scotch Pilgrim, when they are all wearing the same uniform, but he can't wear a 2" x3" patch, that's gonna get people killed?
@Scotch Pilgrim, yeah he disagreed with an order, but was it that serious do discharge a soldier with nothing on his service record and deny him most of his pension? He want working with soldiers of other nations, it was an all US unit, but it was based at a UN base and a UN colonel was in charge of the operation. But he still took his orders from a US general
@angrydwarf, you have yet to answer my question. Do you honestly believe the order to switch flag patches was one that was immoral, illegal, or violated his human dignity?
@Captain TR8R, he believed in America, loved it, it was offensive to him to remove his flag, and replace it with a different one. And it was a simple thing to let him have and he wasn't the only one who wanted to keep the stars and stripes on as well
@killrmuskrat , oh boy oh boy oh boy *gets popcorn and waits for internet arguement to unfold*
@gaemboi, it offended him but did not violate his human dignity then? Being offended is fine but that's not what that law was meant to protect
Well I mean few if any other country has had quite as many reasons to create such a law
@George Feeny, savage
@George Feeny, Savage burn 70 years in the making
@George Feeny, you sure about that?
@George Feeny, in recent time ya but what about all of their allies in that war? Or Iran, Iraq, Egypt, China, France, Russia, spain or the US? All have committed atrocities verging on population extinction in recorded history. So we bring up something from 60-70 years old of how terrible they are but refuse to rather than something from 200 years ago. At least they learned from it...
@Runnin with scissors, *60-70 years ago about*, *refuse to recognize something*
@George Feeny, they've got about 6 million reasons to never violate human dignity and rights anymore.
@George Feeny, Random fact - about 2 years ago the German Ethics Committee ruled that the laws against incest breached human dignity as it was a 'fundamental right' for siblings to be able to hook up. So yeah, they might still keep a little more latitude in their definition of 'human dignity' than some others....
@George Feeny, i mean. Surprisingly a lot of countries do have that reason, and don't have that law.
In the US a soldier can disobey any order that is illegal, immoral, or unethical
There may be some historical context for this rule...
I wonder why....
@guy you know, it's the jews
@Todamnfunny, those bastards! Someone should wipe them out.
@Says wrong thing guy, I see what you were going for with your name and all but you might want to pick a more clear name. Like foot in mouth guy or something you know? It just sounds odd in my head when I see "says wrong thing guy"
@George Feeny, well hell...you are the one I was trying to get my point across to. Since it sounds odd to you, my target audience, I will need to really consider modifying it.
Most 1st world countries have this rule.
As a member of the US Navy, I know this to be true for all branches of the US Military, and as I work with them, the Canadian, British, and Australian militaries as well.
That's true. After what happened we (Germany) have to really watch out something like that never happens again. So far we're doing a great job, I really hope it stays like that for a long time.
@A pet named Steve, yeah, even holocaust denying is illegal in Germany... Any idea how to get that law to the USA?
@UncommonSense, sadly, no...
Uhhhhhh Geneva convention?
@bushels21, the Geneva convention says flame throwers are still ok to use
@TheFury01, is a flame thrower really that much more unethical than a gun or a knife or a hell fire missile?
@George Feeny, well let's see, burned alive vs possible instant death or even painful bleed out. You decide.
@TheFury01, yea cause knives are totally instant deaths. Naw man flame throwers are just silly weapons. You gotta be way closer than a gun.
@George Feeny, hence "painful bleed out" but during the era of trench warfare, flamethrowers offered a tactical advance, move or be burned alive. They would also be deployed in bunkers containing machine guns
This is also the first and most important law in the German Constitution:
The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all public authority.
Probably because it's an expected response from the soldiers, unless we train our soldiers to be sheep, idk I'm not in the army
Few if any other armies had hitler so yeah I'm okay with that rule
How the F*CK is it Germany of all Armies?
*Nazi Army* coughing in the distance.
For some reason I feel like Juice might have something to do with this law
@D1O, I love juice
Too bad border patrols don't have the same ethics
Hey guys, what's goin on?
In the army this rule doesn't exist...I know first hand my dignity was broken just because my airborne wings were centered correctly by a few millimeters.
The U.K. Also has this rule
Israel also has it
They just tryna cover their past.
False. Also keep in mind that they are not a superpower, haven't been for decades. Where is the funny?
This is how you prevent nazis
I heard it's their third reich