This is why I'm pro-choice. Also, you wouldn't believe the amount of people that try to get male prostitutes to pay child support.
@The Manwhore, from a British point of view, I really don't get why it's such a fuss in America. Or why it's up to a group of old white men to decide what a woman can and can't do ( I do know there a some women that are against abortion)
@Ethan Bradberry, one of the issues is child support. She can decide to keep the baby and force the guy to pay child support even if he doesn't want it. Reverse it and if he wants the child and she wants to abort it, there's nothing he can do. Courts and legality is a big part of why there's a debate
@Richard Cypher, thank you. Makes sense
@Ethan Bradberry, it's pretty much a problem of empathy. It's hard for some to understand what it's like to be a woman who wants an abortion. Pretty much all you got to do to understand it is compare it to a situation in your country where people in power refuse to see things from the point of view of a certain demographic; foreigners, for instance.
@The Manwhore, I never thought of that before. Has any case actually ever won?
@The Manwhore, the main issue is whether or not it is murder to have an abortion. If a man kills his pregnant wife, he gets charged with two counts of murder. Personally, yes, I do count the fetus as a human life. If you accidentally got pregnant, well, that is a risk of having sex. Same for the child support. Don't take an innocent life just because you can't accept the consequences of your actions.
That being said, I know and understand the other side of the issue. It needs to be debated and discussed further. At what point does the fetus have rights as a human being? And it needs to be made consistent across the board.
@Ethan Bradberry, if the issue was about the woman's body, there wouldn't an issue. But since abortion is about killing the baby's body, not the same thing.
@The Manwhore, no. It's pretty much a problem on if it is murder or not...
@The Token Black Guy, nah, I'm sterile like a line of piss.
@RogueKnight, the biggest problem is when that baby keeps dodging the coat hanger.
@RogueKnight, that's a fine debate, but too often is the womans side of the argument lost in the ether just because: "She brought it on herself." One: that's not always true. Two: even so plenty of people get into sh!t they bring on themeselves and can get out of it: I fvcked up my kidney with crap gimme, a new one, my teeth rotted out, gimme dentures, or I own a bank and lost everyones money, gimme some more. The only argument should be the morality of the act and not the womans ability decide for hersself.
@The Manwhore, but if you are one who believes abortion is murder, then the ability to decide from yourself is moot. It's not that the pro life people are ignoring what the woman is going through. It's that what she is going through is nowhere near justification for taking a human life. It's about c You comparison to getting new organs and such doesn't work that well. If you had to have a doctor kill the person you were going to get the kidney from, no one would support organ transplants.
@RogueKnight, and my phone freaked out while I was adding another comment...It's not that the woman brought it on herself. It's that there are consequences to actions. It's the same with the child support side of it. If you don't want to take the chance of being a parent and the responsibilities that brings, don't have sex. Society has become focused on what feels good emotionally and physically and that isn't even a legitimate option for them. It's not just the woman's body though. It is the baby's body, too.
@RogueKnight, again, whether it's murder or not is way more valid than a womans part in the decision. But if you want to debate the moral relativity of abortion then that is a different conversation.
@Richard Cypher, wizards first rule....people are stupid
@The Manwhore, when do you believe ensoulment occurs? As in when the fetus becomes a human being? For Uk law it's 24 weeks in. So it's not murder
@Ethan Bradberry, for me it would be when the baby first takes a breath, but that's extremely late in terms of a legal timeline.
@The Manwhore, the problem with that is if a premature baby is born at 8 months, is it more alive than a baby still in the womb at 9 months?
@Dr Robotnik, in terms of abortion, no. But to me, the first breath is the difference between a life and a lump. A religious sentiment on my part, but it does help rationalize stillborns.
@The Manwhore, but fetuses also practice breathing in the womb. If it's late enough in that there's a possibility that the abortion would fail and just hurt the fetus then it shouldn't be done. If it's a clean break then it's the parents' decision
@Oujosh29, but the baby's body is inside of, dependent on, and directly affecting the mothers so.....can you really say that it has its own, separate body like that?
@Pinkpuppetfred, there is definately a point of no return. I don't know enough about gestation to point out where that point is though.
@RogueKnight, What about people who were raped? What about people who have medical issues and can't carry a child to term? What if they find out the baby is gonna die whether they give birth to it or not? What if they can't afford it and have to think about how even if they do give birth, they won't be able to provide adequate living space, medical care, basic food and hygiene necessities, etc.? Do you see why saying "just don't have sex" doesn't help in any way?
@KeKesUHaulFacility , I admit, I still wrestle with the issues you bring up. It is a tough moral decision. When the mother's life is at risk, in instances of rape and incest, I believe then the mother and father ( if medical, not for rape) have to make that decision. If the child is going to die, carry it to term and see. Doctors have been wrong. If it is something where the child is brain dead, parents decide.
As to the not being able to afford it, well, again, pregnancy is a consequence of having sex. It's a risk you take and you need to figure out how to make it work. Don't end an innocent life just because you don't like what happened.
And yes, saying don't have sex does help. It helps with the economic issues you brought up. If you can't support a child, then don't carry out an action that can create one. Honestly, though. That is what family is for. Go get a second job. There is a solution if you are willing to work for it.
@RogueKnight, No, telling people to not have sex doesn't work. Just look at the results of abstinence only sex education, teen pregnancy always skyrockets when people aren't presented with the correct information and don't learn about all their options and are just told "oh, just don't do it". It's honestly really naive (almost thickheaded) to suggest that as a viable plan. And getting an abortion IS one method of making it work, it's choosing to not drop your life and break your back working multiple jobs for 18 years and beyond. People have a right to look out for their security and happiness, people do, not zygotes and fetuses.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , so educate people about sex. I have no problem with that. None. I have a problem with taking the life of a a baby because mom and dad can't deal with the consequences of their actions. Abortion is not birth control. A human life, even one not fully developed, is being taken, for no fault of it's own. Quite simply, its wrong. Yes, having a child at 18 makes your life harder. You'll miss out on experiences you otherwise would have had. Murder isn't the answer. Fetuses are still human life. And the courts recognize that fact when they charge someone with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman.
I'm not being naive or thickheaded. When you believe abortion is murder, that a fetus is a human life, then abortion isn't the answer to fixing issues about your security and happiness. To me it is on par with saying it's okay to kill your spouse if they don't make you happy or hamper your financial security.
@RogueKnight, Ok but if they can't provide a good life for that child then what's the point? Ok, you carry it to term, have it, and then what? Let them suffer with the flu cause you can't afford insurance? Let them be malnourished because you can't afford food? Let them be covered in their waste because you can't afford diapers? Let yourself develop depression because you know your fvcking up, you're stressed about it, but it's outta your hands, you can't do anything about it now? Like, really truly I'm not saying poor people or disadvantaged people can't raise kids but it's HARD. It's ridiculously hard. Real, living, breathing, thinking, feeling, processing people shouldn't have to suffer and watch their child suffer just because others think that having a doctor kill a fetus (and by fetus I mean like a spinal cord, a tail, and maybe 1 t-rex arm because that's what they are) is some capital offense.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , and so not being able provide an ideal life justifies murder? There are other options. And a less than ideal life is better than no life.
@RogueKnight, Not if they never even knew they were a life. Like, we get it, you think it's murder but it's the "murder" of a bloody sack no bigger than a fist in most cases I mean come on. There's a greater good to consider. It's sad that the world is set up where people have to make that decision sometimes but that's what it is, and it's important that they feel safe and supported when going through it.
He spent like 5 minutes making that
@SuperHitler, the decision to throw his mistakes into the waters? Would've taken me 2.
@SuperHitler, ohhhh look at the marathon man over here thinking everyone lasts for 5 min like him. Show off 😒
@SuperHitler, that's at least 6x longer than I would ever spend making a child
@Unique Username 2, I get the feeling you work with Preston Garvey in fallout 4. (Minutemen)
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