No one wins, you just do better each time
Why is Britain an axis
@VoIdemort, you ain't American, you a Nazi
@VoIdemort, they aren't. It's alluding to the common, yet ignorant opinion that the United States of America 'won' World War 2.
To all Americans who immediately lost their shït by reading that, I don't give a flying fück. Joining a 1,000 meter race 800 meters in does not count as winning, and neither does joining a 6 year conflict 4 years in.
The main victor of World War 2 was England. Winston Churchill alone accomplished more during that war than the entire US government put together. And the fat bastard was drunk during most of it, too.
@I Are Lebo, thanks for posting this. It ticks me off that Americans think they are the heroes of WW2. They only got involved once they were attacked, they didn't care what was happening in the rest of the world until at point.
@I Are Lebo, no but joining a 1000 meter race 2 meters in then quadruple lapping everyone else is still very impressive.
@Albatraous, my grandmother only survived Aushwitz due to the intervention of American troops, and yet I feel like I owe them NOTHING. Had they intervened just three years earlier they would have saved tens of millions of lives, at pretty much the same cost to themselves that they ended up paying anyway.
They try to have their cake and eat it too. You either focus on yourselves, or you be the hero. You don't get to focus on yourselves then claim to be the hero also.
@SparkySparky BoomMan, which relates to what happened in exactly zero ways.
@I Are Lebo, and they fail to acknowledge Canada.
@I Are Lebo, someone is a little but hurt.
@Shaboigan94, they always do. 🇨🇦
@SparkySparky BoomMan, a little bit, yeah. That's what happens when you see someone taking credit for the massive amounts of sacrifice and victory that they didn't help with as if it was all them.
It's a scumbag move, and yeah, it makes me a little salty.
@I Are Lebo, I'm technically American (Hawaii) but have never really identified myself as "American". However, from my knowledge,the US was still in the Great Depression while going to war, so it's really hard to say whether things would be better or worse if they intervened earlier
@I Are Lebo, tell that to the entirety of the pacific chapter and all of northern Africa, ya that was all us your welcome.
@SparkySparky BoomMan, you're*
@Dyslexic Unicorn, that's true. When you start into the topic of 'alternative history', everything really is just guesswork. There's so many variables in play you can never really tell what could have happened.
@I Are Lebo, exactly. We can always say that they should've done this, or they should've done that, due to hindsight. I still find the "what-ifs" to be particularly interesting
@SparkySparky BoomMan, the majority of World War 2, and the largest conflicts, all took place in battles that did not involve the American army as a major player.
Nobody is saying that Americans soldiers didn't help. But there is a HUGE difference between being involved, and 'winning'.
Truly, the biggest reason why America didn't win is because there wasn't much at stake for them to lose. Hitler was not about to take his war of conquest across the ocean, and nobody with more than half a brain would think that Japan had as much as a snowball's chance in Hell of conquering or destroying the USA.
Britain fought for its future. France fought for its freedom. America fought for its pride.
America was a super power before WW2, and they were still one after. They didn't win jack shït during that war that they didn't already have.
@I Are Lebo, may the Gods bless your soul. I've seen someone openly say that
@SparkySparky BoomMan, also, we can edit comments now. There's no reason to post self correcting follow ups anymore.
@Dyslexic Unicorn, same. My particular favourite is wondering what would have changed if Hitler had been assassinated at certain points in history. It's possible that had he been killed prior to betraying Stalin, that the Nazis may have won the war.
@Sgt Pun snyper , what, that "America won WW2"?
@I Are Lebo, George Patton was kind of a badāss too...with his giant ego. But still kinda badāss, ya know, disobeying orders to come to the rescue for England. But ya can only ask so much. Churchill was the easts effluence/strength and has his right. But he wasn't alone. The whole story is amazing and not all of us are individually responsible or credited to our history. Wins or losses. Also Patton was also pretty shwasted during most of it lol.
@I Are Lebo, I've never met someone who went full blown 'you know what fvck America before' somewhere with a majority of US users. I'm from the UK myself, so I really appreciate the recognition for my grandfathers work
@king of sharks, that's true.
But here's the thing. I don't blame the US for not getting involved earlier. During 1939-1943 it was a real shït show over there, and other than general humanitarian causes, there was no benefit to sending troops over. They would have been sacrificing many lives and a LOT of resources, during a time of economic lows and a populace that had no desire to get involved in Europe's problems. The war was extremely unpopular because it barely affected most Americans. None of this is the fault of Americans today.
My problem is with subsequent generations of Americans trying to make the largest conflict in recorded history be somehow about them.
It was not.
@Sgt Pun snyper , all four of my grandparents were Holocaust survivors, and some of my family members fought during the war as well.
It's not that I don't recognize all of the things that the USA has brought into this world and done. They're just so freaking arrogant about it, and many of them aren't just arrogant but are also so ignorant.
The upsetting part is that America has the numbers, the resources, and the opportunities to genuinely be the greatest country on this planet. But their heads are so far up their collective asses that they think they are already there.
It's wasted potential, and that just makes me sad.
@I Are Lebo, if America didnt get involved the war wouldve been much longer and hundreds of thousands more lives would have been lost. Not to mention that there was always the prospect of Britain being overrun. The soviets would have eventually pushed back but then they wouldve made the entirety of europe communist, since they would have basically conquered the continent. Dont undersell the American's intervention. (I'm a history major with a focus in WWII studies in case you were wondering)
@Clever Nickname, yes, the United States of America played a major role in the last two years of the war. I never denied this. I never would give that kind of disrespect to the hundreds of thousands of Americans that died.
But this does not equal being solely responsible for victory.
@Albatraous, as an American I also get upset that my fellow Americans think we won the war. Sure we were on the same side as the people who didn't lose their country and all that, but no one really won that war. There was so much lost, families, homes, and cities. A tragedy such as that has no winner.
@I Are Lebo, and it's not about the US "winning or losing" its about the allies beating the axis, democracy triumphing over facism
@Dr Kriegerstein, I couldn't agree with you more.
@Dyslexic Unicorn, to be fair, almost the whole world was in a depression. Oddly enough, the war kinda dug a few countries out of it including the US
@Clever Nickname, actually, this entire thread, from the beginning, has been about arrogant and ignorant Americans boasting about how "America won World War 2". The same people often boast that America also won WW1.
And how that's not factual.
Just an FYI: there are a LOT of them.
@I Are Lebo, to be honest, America probably wouldn't even gotten involved as much as it did if it wasn't for pearl harbor. I always wonder what could have happened if that event didn't take place. It was much more a push back on Japan rather than defeating the nazis for America, at least initially.
@Dr Kriegerstein, yup. And even that was a result of a gross miscalculation on Japan's part. That attack was only meant to cripple the western US navy long enough enough for Japan to accomplish its interests elsewhere.
Japan had no plans to destroy America, because they weren't being led by invalids.
@I Are Lebo, I've noticed that your rants tend to start off angry and abrasive, then you throw in the logic once someone pipes in. Kinda rubs me the wrong way a bit. I would say that being forced into a war and then dropping a nuclear trump card is a pretty clear win. So while we didn't have to endure it as long as Europe did, we certainly tipped the scales.
Also, try not to call Americans as a whole arrogant and such. All countries have their loud, obnoxious, and downright unpleasant people, but the general populations are not made up as such.
Overall, you make fairly reasonable points, but they're diminished by the your degredation towards others.
@I Are Lebo, I actually didn't know that last part, learn something new everyday. I used to pay attention to this kind of stuff all the time but have been paying more attention to science. Big interest especially in Bill Nye new show and cosmos.
Sorry that got really off topic lol
@TheKen42, well I'm not perfect, and I do struggle with impulse/anger control issues. So I'm sorry I rub you the wrong way but I do appreciate you actually reading out my arguments rather than dismissing me for my abrasiveness.
But (and I do have to apologize in advance for this), your argument is EXACTLY why I'm so bothered by the general American attitude towards WW2. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be a source of shame, not pride. That was one of the worst war crimes perpetrated in recent history. Admittedly, that list is long, and those bombings aren't at the top.
It was unnecessary. It took place during a time when the majority of the conflict was already ending (or had already ended).
The nukes did not end the war, and the attitude that they did has persisted for seventy years, and it bothers the hell out of me when people bring that up because it is not true.
Now, for the record, I'm not saying all Americans are arrogant and/or ignorant. Just the loudest ones.
@Dr Kriegerstein, I heard his new Netflix show was kind of stupid. I hadn't checked it out for fear that was accurate.
@I Are Lebo, I would say it was the Soviets who did the most in WW2. They toke most of hitlers army By dieing mostly. But if the Soviets had gotten all of Europe it may have to the cold war getting warm. Sorry for no commas and the poor gramma :P
@I Are Lebo, the comedy that he tries to implement is really dumb but done of the messages are important. It's sort of hard to pay attention to the message with the unneeded comedic relief but the messages are there.
@Soviet American teo, oh yeah. I'd definitely agree that of everyone involved in WW2, the Russians had it the worst and contributed the most to the direction that the war went.
But I really can't see any perspective where one can honestly say that they 'won' the war. I think the most you can give them is they survived it.
Well.... some of them.
@TheKen42, I was gonna say all you said. There are a lot of loud arrogant Americans. And I feel aloy of his "gun toting fvck yeah america" Ideal is mislead. Most if us aren't like that. Literally most.
I live I. California the most populated state and I think I've met like 4 people like that.
@Soviet American teo, the Soviets did more evil to their own people than good for the rest of the world. Stalin drafted so many people, he had more people than guns to fight with. They were also waiting in Siberian war camps and many died before they even were sent to fight unarmed. Stalin can be argued to be just as bad as Hitler and Mussolini.
@I Are Lebo, the Americans broke a war rule too and they still brag about the victory over japan. The rule for not useing chemical weapons
@I Are Lebo, well, to be perfectly fair, if we hadn't dropped nukes first, the Germans would have.
@Soviet American teo, it wasn't international law at the tme.
@Dr Kriegerstein, oh I know they killed 36 million of there own people they where bad
@Dr Kriegerstein, Stalin's body count was more than ten times what Hitler's was.
@Doctor Krieger, it became a law after WW1 because of the gas use
@Dr Kriegerstein, Stalin was worse. At least 20 million were killed under his rule.
@I Are Lebo, Hitler's was about 11-12 million. Stalin's was about 20-30 million.
@Doctor Krieger, I admit, I exaggerated for emphasis. That, and I didn't take the time to actually double check the numbers.
@I Are Lebo, Do you have any idea where all the equipment England used came from? It came from the US shipping millions of tons of equipment and materials across the Atlantic. And we were doing it long before we declared war. We didn't just join in at the last minute, we were supporting England and the USSR since the beginning.
@I Are Lebo, we more than likely wouldn't have joined at all if Japan hadn't attacked us. Many sacrifices were made to fight for their lands and people way before the US joined the conflict and people sadly forget that here. We joined the fight in order to exact retribution and to aid those that were fighting way before we did. We didn't do it to make anyone owe us and I don't think it would be right to tell people that now either. Let's not forget though that we constantly supplied the allies before joining and besides those that died in the the holocaust, correct me if I'm wrong, the US had the highest death count of all the allies by the end of the war. We may have joined the race late, but we did make sure everyone made it to the finish line.
@Gamasennin, supporting an ally with supplies is, while extremely helpful, not the same thing as joining the war. And it certainly does not mean winning the war.
This all ties back to the original point. Yes, America was involved in the war. Yes, America sided with 'The Forces Of Good'.
But America did not 'win' the war. The Allies would have seen victory over the Axis even if America never joined the battle. It would have been worse, yes, but America did not tip the proverbial scale.
My point, and my ONLY real point, is that the statement "The USA won World War 2" is arrogant, ignorant, and factually incorrect.
@I Are Lebo, first of all America before the war was a world power but not a super power. After the war, they became the bank and and government for the world since the war ravished everything. Because of the war America has over 200 bases worldwide, alliance with eveymajor country, the world's food provider, and the country where almost every single major Company came from.
Secondly everyone forgets that America basically revived every destroyed country to their former glory. Without the us, Asia and Europe would look like 3rd world countries. And last but not least great Britain definitely would be strangled into submission if not then the Russians would own all of Europe. With the US, the grits would lose north africa which would cut the British supply line to their oil and resources from their colonies. Then the Russians join the war. Without the US, no D-day so the Russians blitz pass Berlin and onto Paris. Without the US japan, China, India, southeast Asia, and the middle East
@I Are Lebo, Without those supplies, England would have fallen. They wouldn't have had enough equipment or food. Without the industrial might and sheer resources of the US behind them, the nazis would have starved them until there was barely anything left before rolling over the soldiers who would have few weapons to fight back with. You can sit there and keep talking sh¡t, but without the US, Europe as we know it would not exist.
@Angelic Wisdom, it depends on whether or not you count the Soviets or the Chinese as Allies. The Soviets had 10 million military deaths, and the Chinese had 2.5 million. The Americans armed forces suffered 400,000 casualties, which is more then any of the European countries other than Germany.
But those numbers alone don't give the full picture. You also have to take into account population density, as I'd be willing to bet that there were more American males of fighting age in 1938 than males of fighting age in the entirety of the UK.
Also, and I hate to seem insensitive, but crappy tactics would lead to a higher fatality rate.
At any rate, comparing misery is a waste of time. My only real problem with America and WW2 is the attitude that the fight was decided by them, or 'won' by them, or somehow controlled by them. There are SO many Hollywood films that glorify the role that America played back then that it's been totally blown out of proportion.
@undercover black guy, would all be under Russian influence. It used to be americans taking credit for winning the war but now The new norm is now not thanking the US for entering the war and thinking everything would be fine without them. The US joining the war is not like entering a 1000 meter race when 800 meters have been completed, it's more like entering 1000 race when the previous guy already ran 800 meters , but then breaks a leg and is carried to the finish line by thr US. Then after the race the US becomes the race coordinators. Don't write off American help as "they barely did anything", the US literally stopped advancing towards Berlin and gave their oil to the British just so that the British and Russians wouldn't be sore losers.
Another thing ever heard of lend lease, where do you think advanced equipment and machinery came from during the war, India, no America basically supplied the Russians and British for free. Stalingrad would be a lot different without winter coats
@Angelic Wisdom, all of that was true except I'm sure it was the soviets with the highest casualties.
@I Are Lebo, oh! No, I agree with that. We didn't win anything. If anything we made sure it didn't drag on longer than it could have and backed up people we should have been with from the beginning. And yeah that's true with our mortality rate but I believe most of it came from our campaign in the pacific where it was really just us with very little help. Now that I can say we put in work with.
@undercover black guy, how would Montgomery travel the deserts without US jeeps, how did the British get food when the japs and U-boats sunk grain from India (lend lease b!tch), America was the only reason the British survived and why people in France speak French and not russian
@undercover black guy, this is all true. It would be fair to say that America won the aftermath of the war. They made many very smart ploys, and have been shaping the world since 1945.
But winning a war means ending the conflict so your side gets what they were fighting for. America helped that, but they didn't do it single handed.
I've made the analogy before, but it's like a basketball team winning the championship, but a player who only came on the court in the last quarter claims he won them the game. Yeah, he scored some good shots, and kept the other team from scoring a few times, but it was a team effort, and this player wasn't actually on the court until most of the way through.
@Dr Kriegerstein, I wasn't counting them. They were....... tenuous at best.
@I Are Lebo, although Hollywood overglorifies and romanticized Americans in the second world war, that's because the movie is catered towards Americans. We're not going to make a movie of other countries achievements. Like good on the brits for hanging in there before the main protagonist arrived but England literally was about to be lost if they lost a single battle (battle of britain). I just hate it when people downplay America's importance in the war
@Angelic Wisdom, that doesn't make much sense to me. Even if you meant militarily, they still lost more troops. I'm not really sure what you're getting at but I'm still sure the USSR lost far more people than the US did. They weren't axis power and did a great deal of damage in the western front towards the nazis.
@undercover black guy, oh I totally agree. There's a huge middle ground between "America came in and single handedly won everything" and "wtf America?! You didn't do shït!"
Within that middle ground lies the truth. And the truth is, a governing body which was established to be in charge of their best interests and the best interests of their populace acted in a way that furthered those self interests.
Anybody upset by that doesn't understand the purpose of a nation or a national governing body.
World War 2 would have been even worse if the United States of America hadn't gotten involved. But that's not reason for American pride because it was American pride that kept them out of the conflict for as long as they did.
Also, the number of boats of Jewish refugees that were refused entrance into the United States and were forcibly sent back to Europe to their deaths sickens me.
@Dr Kriegerstein, Mm. Yeah. I just see them as their own faction considering their actions after the wars end. I'll make sure I don't make that mistake again though, so thank you.
@I Are Lebo, Well, can you blame the US for not getting involved earlier? The US came into WW1 to help its allies and the president at the time told the allies not to overly penalize the losing side. The whole 14 points fiasco (that led to the eventual rise of Hitler) turned American off to European conflict. Not to say the US didn't give the allies aid during WW2, though no direct involvement. The US, besides being deep in the depression era, felt that Europe can fight its own fight this time. Maybe people became isolationist after WW1. So while the US didn't win either war by itself, it can be said that Europe screwed itself twice.
@Angelic Wisdom, true true. They were very different from all the Allied forces and rarely communicated with the other forces so now I think I see your point. Also with them having a very different government than the UK and US I can definitely see the separation.
@Pocket Doc, I said earlier that I don't blame them. They acted in their own self interest, and when those interests include not sending your sons to die in someone else's war, it makes complete sense.
But if you don't act like a hero, don't brag about being one later.
When an American brags about the USA winning World War 2 they are disrespecting the sacrifices made by the other countries that made up the Allied Forces. Intentionally or not, they are stating that the victories paid for in British or French or Soviet blood were not relevant and didn't matter.
@Dr Kriegerstein, yeah that's what I was thinking. They'd get the death count thing either way with how many people Stalin killed however.
@I Are Lebo, if you're using that analogy then that means if America wasn't playing, the team would lose. I actually really like sports so I know the importance of a 4th quarter play. Yeah I understand everyone else did a lot in the first 3 quarters but the win is all that counts. Using the same analogy, the US basically supplied the team with jearsys, shoes, and a ball so there wouldn't even be a game without the US.
You can make a better argument for WWI since at the moment the US joined it was really anybody's game but by 1944, the only thing England was useful for was north africa and being used as a launching pad for the US
*I know that the brits and canadians/new Zealanders were part of D-day but America could've done it on its. Cooperation between allies make better alliances in the future. It's the same reason the British used their last remaining, and unnessary, Pacific British fleet to aid the US when the Pacific island hopping campaign was about to end.
@Doctor Krieger, just going back to what you said: "if we hadn't dropped nukes first, the Germans would have."
There is absolutely no evidence to support this claim. Germany did not have nuclear weapons, and you can bet that if they secretly did, they would have used them.
Edit: I am wrong about this. I totally forgot about the atomic race.
@I Are Lebo, I can see your reasoning of disrespecting the countries that have been battling longer and Americans acting like hero's, but every country brags about themselves it's just that America has more influence and political power thus our bragging is the loudest. The Russians say they won the war, the brits say America was it's plus one, the Chinese say they beat the japs with slight American help, the Germans just ignore it, and the French say they helped a lot.
America basically won the war for the West and democracy.
The other countries did a lot, but without the US, you would never have even heard their stories
@undercover black guy, I understand where you're coming from, I really do. Can you at least see how this attitude that "without us, you'd have been lost" is both disrespectful and untrue?
@I Are Lebo, I know I'm chiming rather late on this topic (sort of fitting) but I just wanted to say this: props to you for balancing all of these new point being made by people joining the conversation while maintaining the topic your focusing on. That's great. I'm going to talk about the devastation of Japan, just a heads up. In terms of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the manhattan project had the support of Britain, Canada, and China. There was a serious fear that Nazi Germany would create atomic weapons first so there was a collective coalition to get the idea of atomic off the ground. With British scientist Rudolf Peierls making tremendous headway in uranium research they allowed the Americans access to that research. Fast forward, the bombs are dropped and the aftermath is experienced. The reasons why Americans are pretty uninformed of the war was primarily the biological affects of radiation. The bio effects weren't really explored at the time so when
@I Are Lebo, no one can truly say what would have happened if the Americans never got involved. It is possible that without American involvement, Germany would have been able to focus its forces on the Eastern Front. There is no way of knowing if this shift would have caused the Russians to lose the Eastern Front. American involvement did cause Germany to put themselves into a multi-front war. Like I said earlier, wild this doesn't mean that America won the war by itself without the allies, it is unknown and unclear what truly would have happened if the United States did not get involved at all. Everyone should be able to agree on one thing though. The two countries who took the brunt of the beating from the Germans was England and Russia.
@Musicpays, people's hair started to fall out, cancer spiked, loss of pregnancies, and new diseases appeared the US war department and operating physicians at the time reacted "...holy....sh!t.." the war department then censored a lot of witness accounts coming in from Japan by reviewing all articles talking about it for fear of public disgrace. This perpetrated a lack of education about the war that still lives on to this day. I don't like to say ignorant because while it's partly true, they really weren't being told everything - thus a lack of education fits better. In the end, the bombs were horrible. That can't be denied. They were children playing with toys the like of which the earth had never seen. Consequences the like of which people were ashamed to face. Their lack of education is kinda a key player.
@Musicpays, Psychologically speaking, the reason (certain) Americans view themselves as heros is because while countries fought either in Europe or the pacific, the US debatably dabbled in both, magnifying the perception that we did a lot for the war. Also, given that many mothers sons currently had bullets lodged in their bodies, they had to cope some how. US had to cope. "Why are we fighting this war?" "Why isn't my son coming home?" People had to correct their internal attitudes to match their actions so things would make sense for them. "I fought this war because the world needed saving." "It was the right thing to do." "I wasn't going to sit idly by while they killed people." Youll find that sort of thinking in everyday life
@VoIdemort, this cursed a WW in the comments :P
@Musicpays, so I'm not really sure if it's fair to say that Americans were pompous fighting purely for "pride". That's a pretty ridiculous and overarching claim that underplays it's part. I can see your point in the bad apples that do perpetrate that view though.
@I Are Lebo, to be fair the Americans did massively help with naval and troop support at dday. But I'm pretty sure the soviets and the UK would have hold and won. Japan would have been destroyed by the Americans if they didn't need to worry about troops in Europe. Millions more would die.
@I Are Lebo, they were reportedly less than a year off of developing nuclear weapons when the Germans surrendered. Some historians estimate it at several months.
Don't deny the nuclear arms race between the US and Germany. It makes you look like you're going to any length just to say "fųck America".
@I Are Lebo, The only other option besides bombing them was a ground invasion. Said invasion would've taken an estimated 250,000 American lives alone. So in the grand scheme of things the bombs were a less bloody outcome.
@I Are Lebo, @ThatOneDrunk, was gonna chime in, then saw the length of the rant. But whether or not we joined late, the fact of the matter is had we not joined (i actually did my history thesis on this) the nazis wouldnt have conquered Europe, but the allies wouldn't have had sufficient troops to push them back and the holocaust would have persisted for theoretical decades. Millions more jews would have died. Also, to say France "fought" is laughable. We didnt win singlehandedly but without us the allies would not have won. Show some fvcking respect.
@I Are Lebo, I guess all the troops and training, money, weapons fuel, etc. That America was supplying the allies while still struggling the Great Depression wasn't enough. And while Hitler wasn't an immediate threat to the US he was and could continue to make life hell for the Brits. We only went after Japan after Pearl Harbor true but, that had no bearing on the European war. But let's not forget with Britain on the ropes Germany was months away from having a nuclear device. Then England would have no choice but to surrender.
@I Are Lebo, You realize the bombs were dropped three days apart, right? Italy has surrendered, Germany had surrendered, the Allies were begging Japan to surrender, but they kept attacking. America threatened to launch. Japan didn't back down. So they dropped the first one. Japan said they'd back off. Then they didn't. So America dropped the second two days later.
As far as America using the term "win," I think you're using semantics to support unreasonable hatred. But that's your right, my friend.
@I Are Lebo, It was called WWII because of the multiple theaters at play. You've mainly discussed the European theater and while you are correct in saying the U.S kinda showed up late to that party, if you are going to talk about the European theater, then call it the European theater. In the pacific theater, it's was mostly American Marines taking on the Japanese (the reason the U.S. joined the fray in the first place.) while the other other nations focused so much on the Nazis and Italians (however brief) the U.S practically held off Japan for most, if not, all the war, even using the Atomic bombs to end the war (mostly to avoid large American losses from a homeland invasion, and to show the USSR, who was really getting on our nerves, that we have this super strong weapon, don't mess with us) (yes this partially caused the Cold War anyway)
@I Are Lebo, you seem to gloss over 2 things. first of all being that France and Britain turned a blind eye to Hitler and what his intentions clearly were until it was too late. if they'd intervened when they were supposed to (based what was set forth after the first world war) then world war 2 likely would have never gotten into to full swing, if at all. and I'm sorry but while the majority of conflicts may not have involved American some of the most important sure as hell did. we shut down Japan in the Pacific, eliminating one of Germany's only allies at that point, at great cost to ourselves and we took back France after D-day. we literally matched from the Atlantic cost pushing back the Germans. now if you want to make an argument for someone that did more to end the war the only other one you can bring in here is Russia, which I have yet to see you mention. they lost the most from the allies and fought basically singlehandedly on the eastern front, meeting the Americans and (1/2)
@I Are Lebo, (2/2) and Brit in the middle. this ended up being much longer than I was expecting but while America didn't end the war when they entered there was no indication of Germany being weakened significantly by the British or the French or the Russian and Japan was marching it's way all across the Pacific.
@I Are Lebo, yeah it is pretty weird that when talking about what happened, a people would focus on the part they were particularly involved in
@I Are Lebo, So, to sum this up, you believe if your house is being robbed, your family is being tortured inside, and you are being overpowered and are not strong enough to fend them off yourself, that if someone outside the house notices, takes action, and pushes back the robbers, rescues you and your family from the brink of death and destruction, that he/she is not a hero? You need to get a strong dose of "get over yourself".
My deepest sympathy for your grand parents (if that is true), but you have no leg to walk on in this discussion, just because your grandparents suffered. Just as I have none to walk on, just because my grandparents served. History is history, and history clearly shows that your grandparents house was being ransacked and destroyed, and the US intervened and stopped that from happening. It's always nice to see ungrateful descendants of those whose lives were saved thanks to the valiant efforts of our predecessors.
I'm not glorifying the US, in its current --
@Mhael, state, it's much like the tyrants it once fought. But in the past, the troops that served, the money paid, the lives lost, all resulted in lives being saved, including your grandparents. Be a little thankful. If it wasn't for the US your life most likely wouldn't even exist, especially if your grandparents had died in Auschwitz.
@Albatraous, yea they totally didn't sign the lend and lease act allowing the allies to buy supplies from them under the table.
@I Are Lebo, I just want you to know that as an American, I respected the points you were making about how Britain did a lot of the heavy lifting in WW2. I would never argue that, it's simply fact. What I don't appreciate is that you felt the need to get offended by my comment (evidenced by your downvote) when it's obviously a joke. This isn't the first you specifically have done that. You're the only one that couldn't realize my comment was a joke. You're beginning to be about as much of a cvnt as Michael Fassbender was. Now get your head out of your a$$.
@Gamasennin, Why are you arguing? Kwl America had an influence in the war, they didn't win it, so you aren't even challenging Lebo's only point
@Gamasennin, You do realise supporting means nothing when you over look the great injustices happening around you and don't become actively involved
@Musicpays, those were some excellent points. You're probably right about all of them.
My problem was never with the Americans during WW2, they did what they thought was right when they didn't join the fight, and they did what they thought was right when they did.
My problem is with the ignorant morons who don't understand any of what we've been discussing, and think that America single handedly took on the Nazis and the Japanese and even the Soviets and beat them all.
@Doctor Krieger, no, you're right. I forgot about it completely.
I take responsibility and accept that I was wrong about that.
@ThatOneDrunk, it bothers me when people constantly bring that up. It's not true. The Soviets began invading Japan the day after the destruction of Nagasaki and THAT'S why the surrendered. There never would have been an American ground invasion of Japan.
@Hoban Washburne, you show some fücking respect. That's what this whole issue is about. How dare you say that France's struggle was laughable. How dare you discount the efforts of over a dozen other countries.
You are (one of the types of) person I've been arguing against the whole time.
@GarlHarl, fair enough.
@TheWhiteWolf, all of that is true. My argument was never that America didn't do a lot during that conflict. My argument is that bragging about 'winning' it is disrespectful to basically everyone else that was involved.
@Mhael, I may not totally agree with you, but I respect your stance.
@The Puppet Man, maybe I was tired or high at the time, but I genuinely didn't realize it was a joke. Sorry. I removed my downvote.
Thank you for setting me straight. I mean that. I'm not trying to be an asshole on purpose, and therefore if I'm being an asshole, it's because I don't realize it. Pointing it out to me helps me recognize the behaviour and take steps to stop it.
@Factory BOY, thank you! That was the only thing I was trying to get across.
It was never America's fight to win.
If WW2 was a Bar brawl, it started when Germany decided he wants more space, so he took Poland and Hungary's booths, and tried taking a few others before Britain and his friends got involved. That fight was in full swing while America sat back and watched. Then Germany's buddy Japan knocked over America's drink, America lost his temper, and waded in, knocked out Japan, and helped Britain and his friends beat up Germany and his friends. It could be easily argued that America finished the fight. But he didn't win it. Most of his enemies were already hurting when he joined the fight, and Japan was a LOT smaller than him, so that fight wasn't even.
@I Are Lebo, it's fine. I just hate when this "funny pics" app turns into a political war zone, with certain voices being the loudest. Apologies if my comment was legitimately hurtful.
@I Are Lebo, the simple truth is, europe fought a helluva war but they needed the US to end it. plain and simple, thats a numerical fact. And while I openly acknowledge the courage and sacrifice of countries such as Britain, the fact of the matter is, without the US there would likely be no Britain today.
Also the French were pvssies. Way to surrender without a fight.
@HiroAntagonist, I don't hate America. I truly don't. It's likely I'm going to end up living there in the near future. And I don't hate Americans.
I'm simply bothered by arrogance, ignorance, and the lack of respect towards the rest of the Allies that this attitude has. The attitude that what the other countries did and would have done doesn't matter, that without America they'd have been screwed.
No matter how accurate that last statement might have been, it's still disrespectful.
@The Puppet Man, likewise. It's very easy to get carried away when tempers flare.
If you're willing to tell me when I'm being a dïckhead, I'm willing to hear you out when you do.
@I Are Lebo, I won't because that's not me. I only say something like I did when it affects me or somebody I care about. If a bunch of strangers on an app wanna fight, I say let them. I'm only here for the funny.
@Hoban Washburne, note my response to HiroAntagonist. Numerical facts aside, if you disrespect other countries, and dismiss the traumas they endured, you deserve no respect yourself. And since it was your fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers generations that fought, your generation deserves none of the respect, and yet it is your generation doing the bragging.
That may be the whole crux of why I'm bothered by it as much as I am. None of the people going "AMERICA!! BACK TO BACK WORLD WAR CHAMPIONS!!!" actually were involved in the conflict. Not only are they taking credit for the actions of other countries, but they're taking credit for the actions of their own ancestors!
@I Are Lebo, The Allies were putting up a valiant fight. But by the point America entered the war they were running on fumes and Germany still had a lot of power left. Russia would have been able to punch through with sheer numbers. But the arrival of American reinforcements and fresh troops, generals, and strategists turned the tide. It definitely wasn't just us. But the map would look a lot different without us. Remember, too, that quite a number of Americans left the US to volunteer overseas. There was a rather large American presence in the RAF, for example.
Keep in mind, though, that it isn't just Americans that are ignorant of what happened in the War. Every nation plays up parts and plays down parts, because they focus on *their* history as a nation.
But Americans are ignorant of our own history, too. 90% will tell you the Civil War was fought purely over slavery, that all the South were slave owners, etc. It's the victors that write the books and teach the classes.
@The Puppet Man, I have to be honest, I'm actually quite pleased with the discussion I got going. If nothing else, I got some people thinking. Riling people up to make them defend their points of view is something that I think is positive even when I disagree with those points of view.
I think we all need a kick every now and then, just to keep the blood pumping. I think that's worth all of the downvotes.
@I Are Lebo, I'm american and I agree, our patriotism is so broken and misguided that we honestly still believe we are number one, when in all regards our status has been declining so fast that within about 10 years India's schooling and economy is going to surpass ours. China has already done it. But you know, we are so scared of mexico for no reason we voted a guy in to build a wall, that will never exist and we already have a huge fence so... Yea. Our patriotism needs to be reworked
@IbeTHATguy, I agree completely. It's good to be patriotic and it's great to find pride in your history. It's not so good to neglect yourself and your neighbours then brag about how great you are.
Have you ever watched The Newsroom on HBO? I'm not even American and that speech in the pilot episode made me feel patriotic.
It's easy to boast about your country. It's a lot harder to make the changes that make your country worth boasting about.
@Factory BOY, So every time something bad happens America has to send in the troops? I'd rather not be the world police
@I Are Lebo, I wasn't arguing that point at all, but I wasn't part of that conversation and didn't really wanna be. I would never downplay the UK's role for the Allies in WW2. That would be like saying Italy was the strongest country for the Axis. It's simply and factually incorrect. All I was getting at was that I'm not here to fight, so when somebody gets upset about my joking it's kind of annoying if it was an obvious joke that, if taken literally, would be a very stupid thing to actually believe.
As for you specifically, I went off on you because you've downvoted me before for jokes but those times I thought "what the fvck ever" or that maybe you didn't like that specific joke (which I would definitely understand - I, for one, genuinely dislike rape jokes). Long story short, I just wanted to speak up and inform at least you that you should take my comments with a grain of salt. 9 times out of 10 they're not my true opinion. Unless it's about Fallout, Supernatural, or movies.
@The Puppet Man, I will try to keep that in mind. *respectful head nod*
@I Are Lebo, I had a government teacher in high school who taught us all about the things that USA has done that isn't in the public eye, and it made over half the cl@ss realize that we are worse than we originally thought. Like how USA sold weapons to certain groups of people for profit, all while knowing those weapons we used to cause m@ss genocides. But our schooling and media only tell of the good things USA has done. To invoke forced patriotic thoughts because our current way of teaching was created back when the world wars were happening so it was to raise soilders. But that is no longer needed, and the repercussion of that teaching is creating ignorance and arrogance in the m@sses. It is really sad to see this country being destroyed by the simple idea of "we're number one" when in reality we haven't been number one in anything worldwide except for military size and funding to military in years.
@new username 1, wow, they profited from the war and acted as a shop to the other nations, instead of joining in the fight first. How noble of the yanks!
@IbeTHATguy, which is why I have a problem with ignorance and arrogance. The longer you have both, the less reasons you have to be arrogant.
@I Are Lebo, I just want to thank you for speaking up for the unpopular opinion.
And while im on the object im going to tell a story from my family.
So one of great-grandparents was a part of the resistance in The Netherlands/Holland. He basically helped people get over a river that was in the hands of Germany. So one day a guy came to him, but he didn't trust it. because he wasn't sure if the stranger could be trusted, so held the strangers head underwater for half a minute.
Later, when the war was over the strange man came again. He revealed that he was actually the secretary (could be something else im not sure) of the Queen.
@I Are Lebo, see, but true ignorance is trying to talk about a time that you have no understanding of. America lost a lot of people during WWI and for what? Nothing happened, everyone lost. Their whole mantras before WWI was isolationism, they went back on t and got burned. So when they heard another war, they hesitated like any sane and rational person or country would have. Very few were as forward thinking and had the foresight of FDR who practically begged congress to declare war. Besides, the entire time we supplied Britain with everything, FDR did everything he could to help without committing an act that would lead to his impeachment and imprisonment. So how about you let off a little bit and realize that you don't know what America was like after suffering the worst depression in history and seeing people far away kill each other in what they thought was the same stupidity as before. They didn't know the holocaust was happening, and remember that France actually did and helped
@I Are Lebo, France actually sent their Jews to Germany in the late 30s because they didn't want them and Hitler promised he'd get rid of them... America isn't perfect, and without England standing tall and surviving, we couldn't have defeated Germany in the west, but Normandy happened because of USA WHILE they fought brutal and horrific battles in the pacific too
@I Are Lebo, While I agree that it wasn't just America, any historian will tell you America was integral to the win. ALSO, America did not just join in WW2 800 meters in. America was critically involved in the Italy campaign and even supported the North Africa campaign from the get go, which were both very early on. We also were busy dealing with Japan almost in large part on our own (only some support from others countries).
Everyone became involved in the Normandy invasion pretty much at the same time. America was definitely vital in that. Props to Britain and their impressive willpower for prevailing through constant bombing, but don't reduce America's contributions just because our civilians weren't in range of harm. We definitely helped.
@EVILdrPORKCHOP3, none of that equals "America won World War 2", which is the only point I've been making.
I'm not vilifying America. But you are attempting to vilify France, and I'm not quite sure why. They absolutely did not ship off their own citizens to a foreign hostile nation. What they did was recognize that Germany had the resources, manpower, and willingness to slaughter them. THAT'S why France surrendered. They saw the writing on the wall. Fighting off Germany was never an option for them. It was either surrender, or surrender after getting their asses kicked, and they decided not to waste lives.
And for the record, the only way that America did not know about the Holocaust is if they intentionally blinded themselves to it. Google search the Alta Lena. Several ships came over, they were pleading for help and were sent back to die. The American public and government knew damn well what they were doing, they just considered it 'not their problem'.
@Cpt Crunch, yes, America absolutely helped. No one should ever discount the fact that America had about 400,000 military casualties. They were a big part of the latter years of the war.
But the fact that they did not involve themselves until very late means that it is extremely disrespectful to claim that the victory belongs to them.
How many Allied lives wouldn't have been lost if they'd gotten involved sooner?
Mhael made an analogy earlier that of my house was being robbed, my family being tortured, I'm being overpowered, and can't fend them off, and that someone else rescuing me is not the hero. But in this case that 'hero' waited until most of my family was slaughtered before he decided to help.
That's no hero.
@I Are Lebo, accepting those people could have been considered an act of war... and idk what you're talking about, I never said anything about wartime France, I said that before Germany invaded Poland, during the time from around 35-39, France DID send their Jews to Germany during the years before the death camps. The French most certainly did send their Jews to German concentration camps. I mention that because the idea that America could've done more without acknowledging that not only did France and Britain not do more, but actually aided it? Britain was weary of Germany, but French leadership supported many of the ideas of fascist Germany
@I Are Lebo, and why do u ignore my whole section about WHY America didn't enter earlier? Because you can't argue against it
@HiroAntagonist, too true.
@EVILdrPORKCHOP3, I didn't ignore it. I AGREED with it.
I do not blame the USA for not getting involved earlier.
I do not blame them for joining late.
I blame them for taking credit for finishing off a weakened foe, helping a weakened ally, and making out like they were the big damn heroes all along.
America is NOT the hero of WW2. They were the cavalry. They were the munitions support. Their help was invaluable, but to claim that they WON the war is disrespectful to an extreme degree.
@I Are Lebo, a loss and a complete German takeover of Europe without America intervening
@I Are Lebo, although I will concede that I had taken your messages wrongly, I had thought you meant America was not needed in which case I apologize for previous comments in that regard. We both agree it was a team effort, America could not have done it on their own either. However, I will say that they do deserve the credit because while England had survived and taken out the Luftwaffe, America actually pushed. They were he ones invading and killing Germans in mainland Europe
@EVILdrPORKCHOP3, they deserve credit where credit is due. But to claim credit for the whole war is disingenuous.
@I Are Lebo, America: Back-to-Back World War Champs! You're welcome by the way. We're number one!
@The Puppet Man, it's not rape, its surprise sex.
@I Are Lebo, Picture ID #281776
@I Are Lebo, I agree that we did not win the war. However we were aiding Britain and Russia throughout the war with our supplies. We didn't get involved at first because we were in the depression and we had no standing army. Not to mention it wasn't our war to start with. We did contribute to the ending of the war though. Maybe not as much on the European theatre but the pacific theatre we kicked aśs with Australia. So please don't call all of us ignorant for thinking we won the war when in reality it was a combined effort from the start.
@Totrollornottotroll, I am not stupid enough to go to a link that a self titled troll sends to me.
@Dark Lord Bane, couple of things. First, I did not, and would not, make the claim or statement that all Americans are ignorant. That would be proof of only my own ignorance.
Second, I totally agree. It wasn't your fight to get involved in. Hitler was not a threat to America or the American way of life.
Next, yes, America absolutely contributed to the victory. I never denied that.
But to say "America won World War 2", or "America saved the world from the Nazis" is both inaccurate and disrespectful.
It wasn't your war to win. You sent aid to an ally at their darkest moment, and that's wonderful. But you also waited until their darkest moment to send aid, and even then, only because the ally of your ally's enemy (Japan) attacked you in a separate attack.
If Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour, it's entirely likely that the USA would have sat back and watched Europe tear itself to pieces.
Yes, America was instrumental to the Allied victory. But you are not heroes for that. You can't
@Dark Lord Bane, have your cake and eat it too.
Either you looked out for your own interests and your own people, in which case you get to move on, content in the knowledge that your country did what it needed to do to preserve its ideals and way of life.
Or you played the hero and saved your allies from their enemies, at great cost to yourselves, and you get to feel proud of your fathers for their selflessness and sacrifice.
Since America did not do the latter, not until the conflict had been going on for years and tens of millions of people had already died, trying to claim that America DID do the latter is insulting to everyone who was involved in the conflict from the beginning.
I've said it before, and I'll likely say it again: America did not 'win' WW2. It was not their fight to win, and they did not join it until they felt they needed to. They were not heroes, and bragging that they were is ignorant.
@I Are Lebo, America basically won the war for the western front and the Pacific. You're argument of "they joined because they needed to so they don't get any credit" is disrespecting Americans. Every country joined the war for because they need to, the same way America joined the war. The axis bombed pearl harbor and America joins the war, Russia is invaded so the ussr joins the war, Britain's ally Poland was invaded so Britain's and France join the war. Almost every country joined because they were forced to by their leaders. Like I can understand you feel like Americans are being arrogant, but before the US joined, the allies were surviving, it wasn't America was fully committed to to the war for the allies to start winning ( maybe except the ussr, they just had a more expendable population than the germans)
@I Are Lebo, like before America joined the British were about to lose the Suez canal, France was a lost cause, there was no way for the British to land on the continent, China was steadily losing the war, Japan was about to take over Indonesia and Papua New guinea(and in striking distance of the Australian coast), the Spanish was about to ally themselves with Hitler, Japan was planning an attach on British India, the Russians, although winning, was losing hundreds of thousands of men and desperately needed a western front open. America figuratively tackled all those problems at the same time. You can call Americans a lot of things but saying we didn't win the war is just plain wrong
@undercover black guy, joining a conflict two thirds of the way through and helping a weakened ally defeat a weakened enemy is not the same thing as winning a war. An argument can be made that America ended the war, but tell me: what exactly did America win? What reward did they receive? A war is not a game and truly out of every Allied country involved, America won very little. As I said, their way of life was not threatened. Their ally's way of life was.
America was not a prime participant in that war and so they could not have won it. At most, they won the war for their allies. Saying "America won World War 2" implies they won the entire conflict for themselves, which no matter how you spin it is not true.
As you said yourself, there were several different fronts to the war. There were different theatres. To have 'won' the largest conflict in human history would have required victory in every theatre, WHICH DID NOT HAPPEN, unlike what Hollywood movies like to show.
@undercover black guy, if imagining America swooping in like a hero at the end of World War 2 and saving the world single handed is what you need to get through the day, then I sympathize. But it's not what happened.
You Americans have such a poor grasp of history, it's really not surprising. Your education system is perfectly set up to keep people patriotic and ignorant.
Do you know how many Americans have never heard of the War of 1812? Americans versus British-Canadian colonists in a war of expansion? We kicked your asses back south of the border, we burned your White House (that's why it's white. It was whitewashed to fix the damage). Yes, we took casualties, too, and you burned down York, but we won that battle and so it was removed from your history books.
How can you forget the conflict that your National Anthem was based on?
@I Are Lebo, first of all, the war of 1812 started because of the British kidnapping American sailors. Plus there's almost no reason why Americans need to remember it, except for Andre jackson, since the truce deal was literally just keep the status quo. Also America destroyed an entire British army at the battle of New orleanssith only a loss of 11 men.
I know that America didn't do it single handily at the end, the Russians and Chinese helped, but you didn't address how the allies were losing until the US showed up. Don't act like the British, Chinese, Australians, or french were going to pull a comback. The allies were only starting to win once the US joined.
@undercover black guy, furthermore, the Western and Pacific fronts were not the only fronts. They won sections of the war, not the entire thing.
@undercover black guy, "The United States was integral to the Allied victory".
"The Americans brought back the Allied forces from the brink of defeat".
Those would be accurate statements.
"America won World War 2" is not. They didn't do it alone, and they did it on behalf of others. I'm not nitpicking because I'm an ass, I'm nitpicking because it's a very important distinction.
And the mere fact that you would claim a 2 year long war has "almost no reason why Americans need to remember it" is a clear condemnation of the American Education System.
@I Are Lebo, also America was the one that started conflict in the majority of the theaters. The US started and won, the Pacific theater, the Burma campaign, the Sicilian campaign plus the invasion of italy, and the western theater. The only ones the American did not physically assist in were the main war in China, the beginning of the north African theater, the middle East guerilla war, and the Easter front. So America did win a lot not only in war but, you don't fight without a payment. There's a reason why every country in the world is still paying off the WW2 dept to America and why the US has over 200 bases around the world.
@I Are Lebo, so remember all British war even the less significant ones like the second opium war for example( I personally don't really know about the war except it ruined china). My point is there's no benefit to the student to memorize pointless wars.
Also did I ever say the US Won the war? If I did I apologize, but the US I a winner of the war and I do believe more of a winner than France or Britain. Just like animals "all winners are equal but some are more equal than others"
@I Are Lebo, I honestly don't remember or was never taught the less significant British wars and I'm not going to Google them to make a point, but I know there's a lot of them
@undercover black guy, also, please explain to me how America could have started most of the theatres when they didn't directly get involved until after Pearl Harbour?
What, you think they all sat around with their dïcks in their hands until America joined the fight?
I didn't say you argued that America won the war, but I am arguing against that argument and have been since literally my first comment on this thread. If you want to take comments not directed at you personally, that's your call.
@I Are Lebo, first of all you've been dodging the side arguments and secondly, I've already addressed the fact that no one fights without something happening to their country. Pearl harbor was the catalyst for America The ussr also joined late because they were invaded and that was their catalyst, China joined because they were also invaded, the British and French joined because Poland was invaded(and because Hitler didn't follow the agreement. So I don't understand your argument of saying only the us joined because of selfish reasons.
If you're arguing about the US being a little late, the war technically started in the mid 1930s with the invasion of China by Japan. Did the brits come to help, or ever even tried to help until the US showed up, did the British help when Italy invaded Ethiopia, did the British help when the germans were blitzing France. So don't act all high and mighty when your country didn't help until they had too also.
@I Are Lebo, the Germans and japs started the war-the British, French, Chinese, etc were forced into it earlier than the ussr or America and the US with the Russians won the war with minimal troop help from the other allies (the British and Chinese were the most side help and both of their armies couldn't even function without the US aid. The US let some tank divisions stay farther back, and not advance, so they could divert oil to the british and the Chinese were used as Canon fodder to let the Americans rest in southeast Asia.)
@undercover black guy, I'm 'high and mighty' because my people were involved from the onset. I'm 2nd generation Canadian. My background is from Hungary, Romania, and Chzechoslovakia.
I may have have been dodging the side arguments, but you've been consistently missing my main point.
Victory for World War 2 does not belong to America.
Everything else that has been brought up, thrown in my face, or yelled about does not change that fact. Did Americans help bring about that victory? Yes. Would the Allies have won without America? Who can really say for sure, but it seems unlikely.
But still. America did not by themselves win the war. They didn't win every battle, they weren't even involved in every battle, they didn't single handedly win the war.
I will say it one more time. America does not deserve credit for the whole war because they didn't win the whole war.
@undercover black guy, and just for your knowledge, World War 2 began with the annexation of Poland. Not with the Chinese and Japanese.
@I Are Lebo, I can see you're upset that America takes credit, but they take credit because the axis nations (except in the eastern europe) signed the declaration of surrender to the Americans. In football or all other sports, you don't say the role players won the game, you say whoever made the most impact on winning as the winner of the game like "oh LeBron made the game winner, he won us the game"
@I Are Lebo, well WWii started for the Europeans with Poland, you're talking about appropriating when the Chinese were basically fighting the japs since the end of the first world war (there were armistice agreements). You could also make the argument that it wasn't a world war until 1941 with the bombing of pearl harbor because it can't be a "world" war without a whole hemisphere of the world involved
@undercover black guy, you're still missing my point. At this point I have to assume I'm not getting it across clearly.
This is not, and never really was, an issue of events. Different perspectives of the events can wildly skew things. From your perspective, America was directly responsible for victory. From my point of view, they weren't. In either event, this is not about that.
It's an issue of respect. When someone boasts "America, champion of World War 2", it is disrespecting the millions of people that died in the rest of the Allied countries. That's all.
@I Are Lebo, ir maybe it was considered a world war when Russia is invaded. Just because the war starts in Europe doesn't mean that Europe is the world. In my opinion it was considered a "world" war once a major power from every hemisphere is in conflict
@I Are Lebo, that's what history is, you ignore the details except for the winner. During the revolutionary war, they barely talk about what the natives being massacred before siding with the British, in world war 2 they ignore the multiple famines that were occurring during and after the war ( like the Indian famine that killed 2 million because the brits didn't want to give them grain), or in world war 1 they don't talk about the massacres the Japanese did to the indigenous people of the islands and land they took, just like they don't talk about the Vietnam's fight with imperialist before the Americans intervene. It's just that when it comes to history, you only care about the winners. Does it matter that millions of eastern Europeans died under Germany, yeah, but does it contribute the allied victory, maybe- there's no direct correlation- what is known is the US and Russia basically ended, hence, won the war for the allies so you can call russia and America the champs of ww2
@I Are Lebo, this is still going? Dude. USA is 2-0 in world wars. Stop being jealous of the champs and step your game up. Round 3 will be here before you know it.
@Totrollornottotroll, you need to be a little smarter about your trolling. Put some effort in. Having 'troll' in your name just automatically has me discounting anything you say, so you're not going to upset me.
@I Are Lebo, I choose if and how I want to troll. This is not trolling. This is giving you the hard facts. I give myself a perfect 5/7.
@I Are Lebo, I get that this is old, but I'd like to throw in my two cents. America joined in 2 years late (declared war in 1941, war started with invasion of Poland in 1939). While Britain did a lot early war, the sum total of what they did only really amounted to protecting the UK, which likely would've fallen eventually simply due to attrition. France fell and was Nazi controlled, and so was most of eastern Europe. The winners of the European theater were actually the Soviets; they are the reason the Nazis lost, but not without high costs, and not without American reinforcement on the western front and in Italy. However, one thing that many people don't seem to acknowledge is the Pacific theater. Japan was conquering much of eastern Asia, and no one could stand up to them, until the American forces stated their island hopping campaign to get close to the homeland of the Japanese forces. While they did have some support from their allies (UK, Australia, etc), the majority of (cont)
@Pope Temporal, the fighting was done by the United States. This is crucial, because many people forget some of the horrific deeds done by the Japanese, such as the rape of Nanking and the way they treated POWs. Finally, the Americans sealed the war with the nuclear weapon, which can be debated all day whether it was right or not. To say that America didn't win the war is rather ignorant. They joined late, yes, but not as late as you say. Furthermore, even before joining, they provided lots of support in the form OF much needed food and weaponry to the British. They provided crucial support in the Atlantic theatre with operations such as Operations Overlord and Torch, and beat the Japanese army and navy (no small feat) mostly by themselves. The Russians won the Atlantic theatre, and the British held out long enough to provide support and ensure that the Germans were still split, but don't discount American efforts in the war.
@Pope Temporal, I'm not discounting the American efforts, but to say that the war hinged on the Americans is ignorant and wrong.
It hinged on the soviets. However, with their enormous casualty rate, I don't think it's realistic to say they 'won'. The Allied Forces won WW2, but when Americans brag about "winning world war 2" they are being disingenuous. The Allied forces would have won with America, it would have just taken longer and there would have been a lot more casualties.
The nukes accomplished little for WW2, they changed the world after.
@I Are Lebo, perhaps the allied forces would've won, but perhaps not as well. The Germans were only dealing with the British in the West, and the Soviets in the East, and they were doing well. I happen to believe that the Soviets would indeed have pulled through, but if the Nazis could've neutralized Britain, they could've concentrated their forces to stalemate or even best the Soviets. America did provide a critical amount of distraction and relief. In fact, Stalin was upset by some American operations before D-day because he needed the German forces drawn away from the eastern front. I don't like the casualty argument, because the Vietnamese won the Vietnam war because they achieved their goals, despite taking many times the casualties of the United States. Furthermore, the United States did beat Japan. That fact is undeniable. So half of the war hinged on the US victory in the Pacific. You can argue that perhaps the Russians would've dealt with them eventually, but that'd be (cont)
@Pope Temporal, either after the massive bloody conflict in which they subdued Germany, or while fighting the Germans, splitting the Russian troops, making it easier for both aggressors. Finally, the nuke debate is ongoing. As of now, I'm in the camp that it saved American lives, potentially saved Japanese lives, and ended a war that had gone on too long. The other option being considered was a full invasion of Japan, which potentially would've been worse for both sides. The effects were tragic, but so is war, and it was potentially the lesser of two evils. One of the lasting problems however is the can of worms it opened, causing the cold war and lots of modern tensions. (I am an American in the military, so there is obviously some bias, but I try to keep my arguments fair. Thank you for your time)
@SparkySparky BoomMan, Way to attack instead of defend. You didn’t even try to make it seem like what you said made sense.
@StaffSergeantSnyper, He never said “you know what fuсk America”. That’s not even the attitude he had. Also, the ending quote mark goes after the word ‘America’, before the word ‘before’.
This has caused a bit of upset 0_0
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