The entire story of the Garden of Eden is just God being a dickhead to his own creation for no real reason.
@I Are Lebo, that's a weird way to interpret it, he kinda just set them up in a paradise where they knew no wrong, save for one. They were punished when they eventually did the one wrong thing, and the (initial) punishment wasn't even that severe if viewed through humanity's eyes as it was simply forcing them to live life as we know it, rather than the blissful ignorance (not knowing pain and struggle) they were in before.
@TheStarHawk, an omnipotent being who has a perfect understanding of the future creates a pair of innocent beings, ignorant of right and wrong. He then allows a dangerous serpent into this paradise along with an arbitrary forbidden thing that he makes no effort to prevent his creation from accessing. Then he leaves them unsupervised, and when they act on their nature, unaware of why it’s wrong to disobey (ignorant of right and wrong, remember?), God’s punishment is permanent exile.
That would be like taking a child and leaving them in a room full of toys but telling them that if they touch the red fire truck, you’re going to punish them, and when they inevitably do (as you knew they would in advance), you throw them onto the street to live homeless and alone.
At face value, God is an abusive father.
@I Are Lebo, I think the purpose was because humanity had to essentially have a way out. Imagine if you had your kid chained up and forced to love you? Not really a child and more of a robot.
@AlyciaFear, and imo it's not so much a punishment as it is a natural consequence. Ex: Wages of sin is death. Well wage is the consequence or in some cases just the result of something. Sin is to disobey and turn your back to God, and death is to be separated from God. So basically: the result or consequence of turning your back on God, is that you get to be separated from God.
@AlyciaFear, I see the analogy less of a child forbidden to play with one toy and not knowing it's disobedience (after all Adam and Eve were adults) but rather God saying to his adult children "you can live with me, but if you don't want to, you're free to leave."
@AlyciaFear, those arguments are completely ridiculous. Giving your creation, which literally does not comprehend right and wrong one arbitrary rule with an ultimate punishment is not AT ALL comparable with having your child chained up and forced to love you. Throwing them from paradise for eating an apple is not natural consequences at all, either.
On top of that, God decides what is sin and what isn’t. There’s literally no other metric. To say that the ‘wages of sin are death’ is to say that God being mad at you for ANY reason justified His wrath. At no point in the Garden of Eden parable did Adam or Eve turn their backs on God. God led temptation to beings incapable of understanding why disobeying Him is even a bad thing.
As for your “you can live with me, but if you don’t want to, you’re free to leave”, that’s completely dishonest. They didn’t choose to leave, He banished them.
Your dishonesty is disheartening.
@AlyciaFear, this is my problem with the religious mindset. All you are doing is reaching for justifications, rather than actually addressing my arguments. The God of the bible is an immoral thug who is literally the personification of evil. Petty, vengeful, spiteful, greedy, prideful, wrathful. These are not virtues.
He is set up as a benevolent being, yet loves to give completely unnecessary tests to innocents, for which the punishment for failure (which he foresaw and knew would happen) is unending damnation.
The logical gymnastics you go through to make excuses for your evil god is just absurdity.
@I Are Lebo, well I'm not one to argue too extensively on this topic. People are free to believe what they wish. Especially since it's something that's either completely pointless (ie the makings of man) or beyond our comprehension. I mean, maybe God didn't choose what sin is. Maybe it's an absolute of natural law beyond us. Like what if God was some 12th dimensional hyperbeing, and sin is what He isn't? In the same way anything not at 180 degree angle is not a line.
@AlyciaFear, but never the less I can see how it can be interpreted in such a way, but rarely anything useful comes out of such debates, since like I said, it's either non sense or beyond us. Anywho, hope your day goes well, and I shall see you in the next photo :3
@AlyciaFear, if God doesn’t have control over such things, then there’s no point praying to Him or worshipping Him. That’s a weak, worthless God you’re proposing.
@I Are Lebo, As much as I agree with you, I think you’re downplaying the role of comfort that religion gives people. Its just something to turn to when looking at the chaotic existentialism that our world/life provides. It’s literally impossible to understand the true meaning of life (if there is one), so religion is a good proxy just to take people’s minds off of that existential crisis who may otherwise not be able to. I have a huge issue when people start to pretend that x religion is fact though. All religions are made to cope with the heavy questions of “what is the purpose of the life given to me, how do I live my life fruitfully, and what happens when I inevitably die?” Unfortunately, so many people misuse religion to justify the injustices they create. Thats just my opinion though.
@airguitarpro, I’m not interested in whether or not something makes somebody feel good. I’m interested in what’s actually true. The truth is that along with the comfort altogether too often comes a sense of righteous superiority, and that makes people who are otherwise good people do some really shïtty things.
Even more importantly, beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. Your beliefs inform your other beliefs. So if you believe that the bible is the literal word of God, then you must either believe that the immoral aspects of the bible (slavery, genocide, racial supremacy, etc) are actually moral, or else you are forced to exist in a state of cognitive dissonance.
@I Are Lebo, Doesn’t religious faith literally require some form of cognitive dissonance to follow though? You’re appealing to truth which is noble and again, I agree, I can’t personally ascribe to a faith because of its inconsistencies with reality, but people don’t really care for seeking a truth which they will never understand. Is it better to be comfortable and pretend to know what happens or uncomfortable and admit that we do not know? Also, absolutism isn’t something that human beings are very good at. People are good and bad, just because the bible speaks of genocide does not mean genocide must occur for someone to ascribe to a faith. Faith isn’t something that is black and white, but if you’re looking strictly based on truth/falsehoods, then it certainly comes across that way. Those who commit to righteous superiority are doing so because that is their nature as people, it is a character flaw. Just as it is a flaw to take the bible literally. They can be raised like that sadly
@I Are Lebo, who hurt you? You are being so overly aggressive about this for no reason that I can see. At its core, God said "you can do anything except this ONE thing" but then the snake, through his own free will convinced eve and Adam to do that thing. They disobeyed god and god punished them, knowing that they would only continue to disobey him in the future. That's it. That's the story.
Personally, I dont take everything in the bible as fact there are just too many inconsistencies. I would blame that on rewrites and translations screwing with what was originally there. I also dont believe that god is totally omnipotent, but that doesnt make him weak or worthless (I dont even know how you came to that conclusion).
@airguitarpro, there's also the fact that faith, by definition, is believing in something that cant be or is not yet proven. No matter what any follower of the faith says, we dont KNOW that god exists, but we believe that he (or for me at least something similar in concept) exists anyway. And why couldn't he? The only proof against god is that there is no proof OF god so at best it's a maybe, but not a hard no, which is all that faith requires.
@airguitarpro, the first step towards overcoming ignorance is to admit to yourself what you don’t know. The only way to learn is to start from there, otherwise you blind yourself to reality. ‘Ignorance is bliss’ is not a proper or rational way to live one’s life, and I can think of few worse things than willful ignorance.
@farenhyte , you don’t get to present something as true only because it hasn’t been proven false. That’s irrational. As for what people believe, I don’t care what people believe. I care what they promote and support. And a LOT of people promote the bible as the Ultimate Source of Morality/Truth.
@I Are Lebo, the entire story if adam and eve is more metaphorical than anything and most Christians, at least Catholics dont take it literally. The idea is that God loves us so much the choice or free will to disobey him is ours. Versus a God that forces us to love him and be good, which is more authoritarian than anything to force someone to your will. It's the same concept of if you love someone you sometimes have to be willing to let them go. At literal value what you said makes sense, but this story is mostly to be taken at metaphorical value. Of course you can disagree and call all of this bs but I'm just trying to help clarify things from a more educated religious perspective
@Basil Fawlty, I have no issue whatsoever with someone using the bible as a collection of metaphors and allegories to use to impart useful morals. I have no problems with the bible from the point of view of practicality. The point where I do take exception is just in the use of the bible as historical documentation or The (Infallible) Word of God
I take issue with people asserting facts about reality and telling me that I’m being unreasonable by not simply accepting it. I’m bothered by the meddling religious people who are constantly trying to force their views on those around them.
That’s why I argue against religion.
@I Are Lebo, if I may, I'd like to address a statement in your first response:
"an arbitrary forbidden thing that he makes no effort to prevent his creation from accessing. Then he leaves them unsupervised, and when they act on their nature, unaware of why it’s wrong to disobey..."
Here's the account:
Genesis 2: 16. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17. but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
I'm just saying, it's not like God didn't warn them. That seems like a reasonably good health tip you'd want from your forest guide: "Don't eat this, or you'll die."
@Bad Betty, there’s two problems with that. Adam and Eve did not have the mental capacity to understand this. They were created in full adulthood with the innocence of children. If you tell an infant that if they stick a metal fork into an electrical socket, they’ll die, that won’t stop them because they neither understand what death is nor how they’d be killed by it. On top of that, the very second being they encountered told them it was okay, and they were ignorant of subterfuge and what it means to be lied to. This would be like the same parent that told their infant children to not stick a metal fork into an electrical outlet then leaving them with a babysitter that tells them how fun it is to stick forks in electrical sockets.
God allowing the serpent to mislead Adam and Eve and then banishing then is God being neglectful and sadistic, given that there’s no way He didn’t know what was going to happen.
@Bad Betty, but they didn’t die... which means god lied right? Which is a sin. Plus if god knows all wouldn’t he know the draw from forbidden temptation as he made everything. Kinda sounds like he set them up for failure. Why not just not make that tree? Lol
Isn’t there a book in the Bible where God literally tortures a man just to prove to satan that he’d stay faithful?
I’m not really against faith as it helps countless people, it’s just not for me
@Natural Sarcasm , the story of Job is an example I’ve brought up before of what a massive dickbag the biblical God is in those stories. If he is all-knowing, he knows the results of the tests before doing them, which means the only reason to cause such suffering seems to just be to prove a point. Or possibly sadism.
@I Are Lebo, yeah Old Testament god is particularly needy, flooding the whole world cause people weren’t paying attention to him.
Don’t kill anyone that’s a sin. Don’t be prideful that’s a sin. Good job Old Testament God, message received
@Natural Sarcasm , interesting how every single man, woman, and child in Sodom and Gamorrah were sinners deserving of death. Not one single innocent, down to the baby born yesterday.
@I Are Lebo, good thing the Catholic Church never had any controversy over the censorship of certain materials written by their profits... that’d be as crazy as saying they used to demand reparations so you could buy your way into heaven
@I Are Lebo, and yes of course he drowned everyone, they were all evil. Especially the babies, who said babies aren’t evil and deserving of death? Who I ask.... what’s that?... god said that? No friggin way
Oh I'm sorry, I forgot you're hard on hearing, *ahem* THE FORBIDDEN TREE! How was that, did you hear it that time?