No way, something that you are required to do which is not of your own choosing makes you feel negative instead of positive?
Looks like someone is growing up like a normal human being...
@Majesticmoose00, prepare for incoming comments with silly excuses about why they think it’s the schooling systems fault they don’t enjoy school.
@Majesticmoose00, with that logic, schooling would be a negative experience in all countries where it’s required. “Happier” countries tend to have a much better relationship with education than we (the US) do.
@Blue Shirted Guy, required and the more important part being against their will.
The kids who want to go to school don't have the negative experience.
It is an individual problem, not a country problem.
So no, the logic is not busted. Your strawman is just an over generalization that removes the important part.
Of course those who don't want to go get stressed.
@Majesticmoose00, I thinks it's partially teaching kids the importance and love for learning, but also making schools more interesting. I got no ideas for a solution tho
@RomeoStealYoGurl, it just takes time. Part of maturation is realizing you can't play all day every day.
@Majesticmoose00, I guess maybe even changing your perspective of play, or even life I suppose, to enjoying your work. I'm definitely a completely different person now then I was in highschool. And I wish I could go back and pay attention in class, and kick ass with studying and social life, to enjoy my awesome teachers, and do the embarrassing stuff without worrying about girls. Like having to do a dance routine afront of the class, but the guys thought they were too cool for it. But I wish I did it. Sorry for the rant.
@RomeoStealYoGurl, yeah. It sure would be nice to get a second try.
@Majesticmoose00, there are kids in these other countries who don’t want to go to school as well... They would have to go against their will, that’s what required means? Yet US students are far unhappier. Also, it’s likely there are less students in other countries who don’t want to go, due to how their educational systems are set up. Which is not an individual problem. What about that is a straw man?
@Blue Shirted Guy, a couple more problems.
1. Required doesn't mean it is against your will.
2. Not every kid in foreign countries loves school. Having a more positive outlook in a general populace does not mean everyone enjoys something.
That is how it is a strawman.
1. I think we might just be misunderstanding each other. It’s required, so it’s against the will of those who don’t want to go. This is the same in each country, yet our students are still unhappier. You can not want to go to school and still be happy or unhappy with the experience.
2. I didn’t say either of those things! Not every kid in foreign countries loves school, and not everyone enjoys it, BUT the number of these students (rate, not overall #, obviously) who enjoy it is far less than in the US. That’s an educational problem. Unless you are saying there are other reasons why US students are unhappier in school.
@Blue Shirted Guy, if in general, people think something is bad, boring, or negative in some way, it will breed more negativity.
If people have a positive outlook about something in general, it breeds more positivity. In the us, there is a negative outlook towards education so kids grow up assuming it is bad because that is what gets reinforced.
My whole point is that it is totally normal to get stressed by something you don't want to do but are being forced to do. Those are 2 separate things. When you combine them, it it 100% normal to feel bad about it in some form.
@Blue Shirted Guy, allow me to show how requirement and enjoyment are separate.
In college, parasitology and mammology were NOT required.
I hated parasitology at the time and loved mammology.
Organic chemistry and botany were both required.
I hated Organic chemistry but loved botany.
Required does not equal enjoyable/unenjoyable
@Majesticmoose00, so your argument is that US students are unhappier because kids grow up being told that school is bad?
It’s totally normal to get stressed by something you don’t want to do. My point is that *the rate of students who get stressed out by school is far higher in the US than many other developed countries.* I don’t believe for a second it’s just because “it’s reinforced that school is bad.” I think it’s a fundamental problem with the way the US approaches education.
@Majesticmoose00, I didn’t say requirement and enjoyment aren’t separate. Maybe I’m not being clear, but you keep arguing against points I’m not trying to make, lol.
@Blue Shirted Guy, to convince me, you would have to specify how the us approaches education poorly.
To me it seems like parents should be pushing their kids and not relying so heavily on teachers to motivate them.
With very few exceptions, the happiest and most successful students I have are well supported at home and have friends who agree.
The students who struggle the most tend to lack parent support (or parents in general) and are surrounded with friends who reinforce that negative outlook which just makes it worse.when the struggling kids talk about how their parents talk about school, it is in a negative way.
When positive students talk about what their parents say, school is the road to success and opportunities.
We have an imperfect system, but we also have a multicultural society. Within those cultures are different views on education and it shows in students year after year.
So again, I would love to hear about specific ways the education system is giving kids these ideas
@Majesticmoose00, gonna be really tough to have that conversation on this platform, lol.
I’ll throw one out there. The Netherlands, for example, have a far happier student population. This is for a number of reasons, some not related to education itself, but studies have shown that they have a far more egalitarian setup in their classrooms. US teachers tend to be far more authoritarian. Sounds like you teach, so want to be clear I’m NOT saying all US teachers are like this. Just that on average, we have a higher rate of teachers like this.
Few other issues off the top of my head. Studies have shown:
Anxiety around test taking is far higher in the US
Bullying in US schooling is a far bigger issue
Stress around homework, specifically the amount of homework US students are assigned, is much higher
@Blue Shirted Guy, with regards to bullying and a comparison to the Netherlands, I would simply point out that the cultural difference between the US and the Netherlands is completely different. As I said before, cultures view education differently so a multicultural society will be significantly more difficult to educate in an equal manner. No school in the Netherlands has 40 languages among their student population. There are bi and tri lingual students but they are the same few languages.
Multicultural differences also lead to an increase in bullying. Cliques and racial grouping is natural among children so of course those will be higher in a multicultural/multiracial environment vs a homogeneous one.
The us attitude towards standardized test taking is insanely negative. I have dozens of students whose parents tell them not to try because their parents hate the test system. Is this not a way to make kids think negatively about education when parents tell them like this?
@Blue Shirted Guy, I honestly dont think you have looked into underlying problems if you are comparing the US to the netherlands as your 1st example. I cannot think of a worse comparison.
Comparing the success and outlook of a globally representative country with regards to culture with a population over 300 million to a almost entirely monoculture/monoracial country under 9 million population. Also with a high amount of parents in the home with one of the highest outlooks on education as a profession in the world.
How on Earth would any analysis give meaningful data with those massive variations?
@Majesticmoose00, #s of languages in a society have very little to do with egalitarian vs authoritarian teaching, or anxiety around homework. Of course this (and cultural differences) can contribute to the success of an educational system, but it can’t be used as an umbrella counter to every point.
I’m with you there to a degree. I think that the home environment plays a big role in how students perceive schooling. So yes, this is a way to make kids think negatively. However, this doesn’t answer the more important, overarching question. Does the US have serious flaws in its standardized testing that warrant negativity? Finland, for example, has a completely different approach to standardized testing, and their attitude towards it is much more positive, not to mention their educational system is far more effective. I would argue this is way more important and impactful than “parents making kids think negatively”
@Blue Shirted Guy, culture and language has a TON to do with egalitarian teaching.
If your cultural idea of education differs, you will treat education differently.
Also, how can you provide equal opportunity to students when they don't speak the same language?
Of course the netherlands are more egalitarian, they are very homogeneous and can be heals to the same standard.
When I have an immigrant student in my middle school class with 1 parent and a different language, how can I give them the same education as a locally raised child?
That is impossible.
Now saying they cannot catch up or learn, but I cannot treat all students equally when they come from different areas with different ideas.
This is not just immigrants either.
I get kids who were born here, but speak spanish at home because their parents dont speak english.
That kid is going to need more time and attention (not egalitarian because they need more).
I don't understand how you can discount those differences so easily.
@Majesticmoose00, egalitarian education means treating students as equals. Your example concerns treating students equally. Those are two very different things. You can have a multi-cultured classroom/society with the issues you describe (which are valid issues) and still set your educational system up in an egalitarian manner
@Blue Shirted Guy, my point is if I treat non English speaking students the same as english speaking ones, or treat people with different cultural backgrounds the same, they will have a harder time at school. So you cannot have an egalitarian system in the US easily since we have such high diversity.
Compared to the netherlands where the kids are literate before their first day of school in usually 2 languages which the whole country uses. That is easy to treat everyone the same.
@Majesticmoose00, treating students the same as one another is not what an egalitarian system is. An egalitarian system is treating students as equals to yourself, the teacher. You can have this with non English speaking students, as this shouldn’t affect how authoritative you are in your classroom (at least to a significant degree).
Your second paragraph fits the argument better I think, since a more “education-ready” student base would make it easier for an egalitarian setup. But this isn’t just a Netherlands thing
@Blue Shirted Guy, yes it goes beyond the netherlands. Again, I am simply pointing out that you cannot discount culture and language as you did before.
Again, the post is about schools not caring about students being stressed and my original point is that being stressed from school is very natural for people to dismiss complaints about it.
My further points are that home life and culture play a large role in what someone will get out of school as opposed to the education system they are attending.
Your point seems to be that the education system is more significant to someone's level of happiness towards education and that culture and home life don't play much of a role.
Really our disagreement I believe comes down to this
Which is more impactful in a kids life? Standardized tests and school culture or home life and family culture.
Do you agree with this? if not, please summarize your point in contrast to mine.
@Majesticmoose00, This is why I stopped having these discussions on this app, lol. There’s the assholes of course, but then there’s actual decent people who have conversations, like yourself, all ruined cause it’s just sooo difficult to stay on the same page.
I felt that your point was stress/ anxiety/ negative feelings from school is an individual issue, NOT one caused by the educational system itself. My point was that the US educational system has serious flaws that directly result in these negative feelings in students.
It was very hard to keep that debate separate from the overall debate in what affects a kids happiness/life. I don’t disagree with you whatsoever that home life and family culture is extremely impactful, but you seem to think I do. I just don’t think these are to blame for the negative feelings surrounding school specifically, at least in comparison to the flaws in US education
@Blue Shirted Guy, fair enough.
I wouldn't say negative feelings are an individual problem. I do in fact put them into a larger system. our main difference I understand now is you would blame the education system for these feelings and I blame the different societal aspects pushing the idea onto people. The main reason I hold this view is because I work inside that system and so the view I get day to day.
Out of curiosity, where does your viewpoint stem from?
@Majesticmoose00, it’s a mix.
Obviously part of it, like everyone, is my personal experience. I grew up in upper middle class, well-educated, heavily white suburbs, so my classrooms weren’t very diverse. So variations in teaching methods really stood out, since the student make up stayed pretty constant. I’ve also had anxiety issues since I was like 4, so flaws in the system really stood out. I also went to 3 different high schools in 3 different states before going to college, so I have a lot to look back on and compare.
I’m also a big reader. I’ll take a look through articles, studies, what have you and try to add on to my personal experience to form an opinion. A lot of people, especially on here from what I’ve seen, will take their personal experience with something and create a finite viewpoint of a topic entirely based on how it was for them. I try realllllyyyyy hard to not do that
@Majesticmoose00, (So when I read that our education system is lagging behind, and that our students are relatively unhappy, I start looking around for things to read relating as to why this is)
@Blue Shirted Guy, a solid idea.
I teach science and one of the biggest things I try and help students learn is how to evaluate data and come to appropriate conclusions.
I too notice a lot of people on this app and in life with ideas they hold to be absolute. I grew up in CA VA and AZ and now live in Utah. The majority of people I come across I tend to be able to sway their opinion by showing their conclusions not based off their data. This is why the netherlands argument set me off.
Thankfully, you are indeed a reasonable individual and we maintained a fun discussion.
@Majesticmoose00, ya, i was trying to use the Netherlands just as a small example to support my point and not some big direct comparison to prove my point, but with the limited space it didn’t come across that way. Lol, thanks, you too!
@Blue Shirted Guy, actually there is a difference. For example in Japan you’re only required to go to school for elementary and middle school, high school is optional and only those who score well enough can even get in to the high schools. This means you have to completely negate any and all high school results from those statistics since it would greatly raise their students happiness ratio given that those who don’t want to be there aren’t there to participate in the studies. It also greatly invalidates a ratio comparing their average academic skill level. I will obviously point out that the Japanese school system is far more advanced then the American system but that doesn’t change that again those who didn’t do well in school weren’t accepted into their high schools so they only compare their best vs all the students in American high schools. Again I am in no way saying that is the only difference since clearly their school system is better but it does result In skewed results.
School makes me meme
@MrKillscreen, and your commenting on it right now
@MrKillscreen, meme makes me school
I don’t go to school anymore but I still have these problems... ha....
Did any one else sing I dont give a fck to the fox 20 music
Cant fight the blob!