Also the brutal torture
@Mantis Tobaggan, not to mention the fact that death by crucifixion is arguably one of the most agonizing (you die from slow suffocation if you relax to ease the pain on your wrists and feet, but to breathe you need to lift yourself up which obviously reaggrivates those wounds) and humiliating ways to go (not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but in crucufixion, the victim is also stripped completely naked and often onlookers would abuse and/or fondle the genitals).
Even forgoing the cat of ninetails, the beatings, the crown of thorns, and all the extra stuff thrown His way, just vanilla crucifixion is horrific. Even if you just subscribe to the view that Christ was just a regular dude/cult leader/wise teacher, the fact He willingly submitted Himself to this on the conviction of His beliefs makes Him a genuine badass in my eyes.
@Mantis Tobaggan, I hit myself in my foot for your mortgage. -Doug Stanhope
I wonder if people with this attitude would also consider the agony their mothers went through while giving birth to them not a REAL sacrifice, seeing as the pain eventually went away and they got a child in the end.
@Snarfel Burger, I would not consider several hours of pain to be a sacrifice for having a child. I would consider it an unfortunate byproduct, and one that is usually countered by endorphins afterwards and painkillers during.
If giving birth was a permanently traumatizing/damaging event, I would think that far less women would have multiple children. Clearly, they considered the experience to be at least a net positive for them to willingly do it again. That’s to say nothing of the women who have 5+ kids throughout their lives.
@Snarfel Burger, Not to mention, the child didn't ask for their mothers to give birth. It was their mothers choice as an adult to do so and they accepted the cost so they could have a child.
@Snarfel Burger, people who have children like that… the pin never went away. It just changed.
@but its hard, the child isn’t the only one who might have asked. Also, bold of you to assume they were all adults.
MANY people aren’t thinking “child after all of this” they are thinking “sex please”. Biology is a fascinatingly persistent effect that arguably often does its job so well you don’t realize it was never even your choice.
(He says after spending 10+ years very intentionally married and not having kids until recently; this was also very intentional. My own personal experience invalidating or proving my argument. Not sure which.)
@Canis Arktos, considering that that the majority of people who have children are adults, it's not a bold assumption.
Yeah, biology certainly plays a part but everyone knows that sex = babies. Just because they may not have been thinking it at the time of the act, they could have taken preventative measures before or after. Not doing so means they're accepting of the consequences.
Same as people who blame their children for their failures in life (I would have been ... if I hadn't have had you). It's your choice, you're the adult.
@I Are Lebo, That is your personal definition of what a “sacrifice” is. Apparently it has to involve permanent trauma/damage (which some women actually do have in child birth and can then only have one child). I would imagine this VERY specific definition has not been held by you for long and you just adopted it in order to respond to my (not-so-great) analogy?
Either way, how is a mother’s willingness to go through the pain of child birth more than once NOT a sacrifice? Just because she gets something she wants in return doesn’t mean it wasn’t a sacrifice? Haven’t you ever had to make a sacrifice for something you wanted or for someone else? I feel like people sacrifice everyday they give their precious limited time to a job in order to feed their family.
The real point is if an eternal God, who lives outside space and time, was to step down into history, become a human, endure an ancient form of torture, have the sins, shame, and guilt of all people born and not born placed on...
@I Are Lebo, to Him, and then to experience the full wrath of God (which was not just what humans saw with their eyes at the crucifixion), and then to say that wasn’t a true sacrifice because He was resurrected in three days. I’m not sure what a true sacrifice would be.
@Snarfel Burger, if you don’t lose anything, it’s not a sacrifice. Having a shïtty weekend for someone is an extremely small sacrifice, because all you’re losing is time and enjoyment. If you are immortal and all powerful, sacrificing a weekend is literally nothing because it costs you very small amounts of something you have in unending supply.
Especially if Jesus has perfect foreknowledge (which he’d have to if he was God and would also have even if he was only a human prophet), then he knew how it would end before he went in. That would be like saying that you sacrificed by going to the dentist because you foresaw that you have to get a root canal.
Going back to the pregnant woman for a second, there’s two things. Firstly, appealing to outliers is a rather dishonest tactic. The women who are unable to have a second child due to complications aren’t permanently damaged by childbirth, they’ve suffered damage from the COMPLICATIONS. They are the outliers.
@Snarfel Burger, also, experiencing the wrath of God is a much lesser sacrifice when it’s followed up by getting God Powers and physically ascending into paradise to open the way for mankind. Taken literally, God Created Himself as a human being, something He chose to do to change His own rules (also without the consent of the mother, which makes God a rapist).
Then, He either lived an honest life of a wise itinerant Rabbi or walked around performing magic tricks and claiming divinity, depending on which gospel you’re turning to. He couldn’t have done both as they are mutually exclusive. Then He was crucified for heresy, something extremely common to the land and time He chose to incarnate Himself in. This blood sacrifice in this specific place and time is then applied to all of humanity across all of time. At which point the aspect of God that was manifest sat around as a corpse for a couple days in a random tomb (odd considering most execution victims of the age were
dumped in mass graves and not interred in tombs) before deciding it had been long enough and leaving via God powers.
Then the empty tomb was discovered by four women, who told no one but also their husbands, and then no word was heard from God until Peter and Paul were given visions.
The whole story taken at face value makes no sense whatsoever. Certain elements require God to not have foreknowledge or act like He lacks foreknowledge for no real reason, and then plan itself doesn’t make sense, involving strange blood magic, and an omnipotent being that bends over backwards to prove themselves to not be omnipotent. Could God not have forgiven mankind’s transgressions without anyone needing to die? Could God not have made humans so they are less likely to transgress? Could the world have been made better so that the temptation to transgress would not be so ever present? Is this all a test? If so, why, doesn’t God already know the outcome of the test? What is the point in running tests
with predetermined conclusions? That would be like torturing your Sims forever because you don’t like how they reacted to situations you put them in knowing exactly how they’d react.
I’ve been going on for a bit too long so I’ll wrap this up, but I actually think the six or seven months of pregnancy is a bigger sacrifice for a woman to make to have kids than the birth is. They can’t live they way they normally do, whether it’s abstaining from certain substances or introducing new ones, changes in routine and fashion, clothes they can’t fit into or have to buy. Then there’s the medical complications bit. Up until relatively recently, many women died in childbirth. That IS a sacrifice.
Getting kicked in the balls isn’t a sacrifice, even if it gets you something.
@I Are Lebo, You asked a lot of questions (probably rhetorically) that could be deep conversations by themselves. But I will try to respond to you point by point briefly.
Jesus did lose something though. He lost, not only His life, but as I said before, the entirety of humanity’s sin was placed on Him before God unleashed His wrath on to Christ and He was separated from God. It was not just a “shïtty weekend”.
Having foreknowledge of His resurrection doesn’t mean He didn’t sacrifice. In fact, He asked God to “let this cup pass” from Him. He knew how great a burden He was taking on but yet still did it. I think what’s more impressive is that He could have stopped the whole thing but carried on. We may be arguing semantics, but in your dentist analogy, are you not sacrificing momentary comfort for your own personal health?
I wasn’t using a dishonest tactic regarding the women who experience complications during childbirth. All women know the risks when they go forward with having...
@I Are Lebo, children. Unfortunately, modern parents can choose to end a pregnancy, so that just makes the choice to give birth even more of a personal sacrifice, seeing as they have other options now. Like Christ had the option to step down off the cross if He wanted to.
“Experiencing the wrath of God” is not lessened by later ascending into Paradise when no one else has ever experienced the wrath of God as if they were guilty for every crime ever committed and ever will be committed. It’s definitely on a different level here. How did God “change his own rules”? Also, how did God rape Mary? She DID consent. Luke 1:38 “Mary said, ‘I am the servant of the Lord. Let this happen to me as you say!’ Then the angel went away.” Plus, Scripture indicates Jesus was conceived miraculously. The Holy Spirit didn’t have sex with Mary, she remained a virgin by the time Christ was born...
@I Are Lebo, Christ was buried in a tomb (not a mass grave) because a wealthy member of the Sanhedrin offered his tomb for the body of Christ. The resurrection accounts in the four Gospels are not contradictory. They include different information from the same story as you would get if you interviewed different witnesses to the same event.
The system of animal (and later Christ’s) sacrifice was not “blood magic”. It was reconciling the conundrum of having a God who is simultaneously just and merciful. Crime must be punished for justice to be done, yet the offense should be forgiven in order for mercy to be shown. No rules were changed, God just made Christ the scapegoat for humanity.
Regarding your analogy of a mother truly sacrificing during pregnancy rather than childbirth, I’m okay with using that example. So we agree she is performing an act of sacrifice, even though she is aware that all the things you mentioned are usually temporary?...
@I Are Lebo, By your definition of sacrifice, I wonder if a soldier (who is also a man of faith) is not truly sacrificing when they die for their country? To you, yes, because you believe his death is permanent. To him, he believes he will have eternal life in Paradise. Either way, it’s more than just a “kick in the balls”
“Was resurrected” ≠ “didn’t stay dead.”
Worse yet, a 3-day weekend
So, be mocked, starved, tortured, and it was a pretty heinous torture, crucified, and buried all while your mother watches, and see if you’d just consider that a bad weekend
@Mkb617, .... There are people right now in the real world who go through worse daily. Sometimes for years, not just a week or two. Read up on some human trafficking cases. Then realize Jeebus didn't really have it that bad. Especially since his supposed reward is eternal paradise. Hell, I would go though similar shiite for some monetary gain let alone a supposed eternal paradise.
Not exactly a sacrifice is it when you think about it. More a... temporary punishment for a infinite reward.
But yea no... huge sacrifice bla bla bla. Sacrificing himself to himself to forgive transgressions he himself made. What a joke.
@LaDarkProphet, Don't forget the whole 'taking on the world's sins' bit. It's the most important part, and the least fun, I would imagine.
@LaDarkProphet, You’re telling us that there are people who take 39 lashes, that each strip the flesh down to the bone? Then they have a massive and cruel crown of thorns jammed on their heads with the thorns going to the bone? They are then forced to carry a heavy log up a hill while people spit and curse at them, and then are nailed through their hands and feet onto the very log they were forced to carry? I’d say that either those are the toughest and most unlucky people ever or, just possibly, you don’t really know what you’re talking about.
@Unitard, Lol wow your ignorance knows no bounds.
World must be full of sunshine and rainbows for you lol. Your ignorance disgusts me.
There are people in the Philippines whose own parents sold them into the sex slave industry as young as 4 whose daily, key word being daily, are raped and tortured. Often for years until they escape or commit suicide.
There are children in Africa who have to watch as warlords tear through their village raping and killing their families, often forcing male children to participate or be killed, before being conscripted into military service by the very warlord who killed their parents. Look up the Rwanda and Congo massacres, look up the Rape of Nanking. Look up what some of the people who lived through Pol Pots reign.
Your naivete is laughable. Rape and torture are some people's DAILY reality. Children covered head to toe in scars. And you have the fing balls to say I don't know what I'm talking about? Sftu you moronic scumbag. (TBC)
You absolute moronic cretin. Pull your head out of your arse and look at how some other people live their life's instead of hiding your head in the sand and pretending the world is full of sunshine and rainbows. There are people, alive today, whose life story would make Jeebus lil fairy tale seem like a mild vacation. But your to stupid, indoctrinated and uneducated to know about these stories. Stfu and keep your moronic naivete to yourself.
@Unitard, (FIn Fin)
I also forgot to mention the cartel industry in Central-Southern America, the human organ trafficking of Cambodia and Loas where people are LITERALLY harvested for their organs, often while still alive and can take up to several months before all the organs are harvested, and the treatment of homsexual men and women in certain Islamic countries.
O yea. There are hundreds of thousands, perhaps more, of actual living people who go through worse in their day to day life then your jeebus went through in his entire supposed existence.Educate yourself and do better.
@LaDarkProphet, There is your anger again. None of these guys said Christ’s torture was the worst torture in history (although we don’t know what he endured during/after his death when taking the weight of all of humanity’s guilt on to Himself) in fact, the Apostle Paul was supposedly crucified upside down, early Christians were fed to lions, or burned alive. It’s not a competition of who had/has it worse and it doesn’t cheapen what Christ did on the cross.
@Snarfel Burger, Did you not even read what he posted or you just pulling stuff out of your arse? He literally made it sound as if jeebus went through the worst of the worst and that's demonstrably false.
He literally called me a liar but instead of fact checking him and correcting him on his false assumptions, you attack me "for being angry" because you are incapable of criticizing your own side and holding them accountable. Fing typical.
And your fing right I'm angry. A bad weekend with the price being eternal paradise IS NOT that big a deal and is NOT THAT BIG A SACRIFICE. Especially when you know the outcome. It's asinine bull shiite and goes against any form of logic. It's a false sacrifice plain and simple. It's why it's fairy tale and not reality. Real sacrifice is a single mother who works 3 jobs to provide for her family instead of taking the easy way out. That's a real sacrifice. And far more tangible then some mythical fairy tale. But no, just wave your hand and (TBC)
@Snarfel Burger, (FIN)
Just wave your hand and ignore every point I actually made instead of addressing my actual argument in favor of protecting your precious fragile ideology. Fing ridiculous.
Go play outside and read your Bible kid. Real world problems are clearly beyond your scope and comprehension.
@LaDarkProphet, You are always too emotional, too immature, too childish, too angry, too naive, and too ignorant. I never resort to ad hominem with you but I am this time because you’re acting like a little kid and deserve to be treated like one.
I reread this conversation and no one made it sound like Jesus went through the “worst of the worst” and no one “literally called” you a liar. The only one who said anything “demonstrably false” is when you said a single mother working 3 jobs is a worse sacrifice than being crucified. Ask any single mother if she’d rather be crucified, that’s sick!
You said “wave your hand and ignore every point I actually made instead of addressing” your argument. What points did you make?? You listed a bunch of examples of people suffering and I said the torture of Christ wasn’t the worst in history, and then I even gave examples myself of people who likely suffered more. Also, don’t take a snapshot of me defending someone here and say I am...
@LaDarkProphet, “incapable of criticizing my own side.” You don’t know who I’ve criticized and who i’ve defended. You don’t know me, so don’t say “fing typical” like you’re some petulant teenager. Speak like a mature adult for once. I don’t see YOU criticizing your “own side”.
And regarding your’s and others intentionally sacrilegious comments about “it was just a bad weekend” that is a colossal lack of perspective, not to mention a lack of understanding of the Passion. You guys comment too much on something you understand so little. I responded to that very argument in a conversation above if you insist on me addressing that point...
@LaDarkProphet, Now that i’ve written my peace, I’ll apologize. I’ve had several conversations with you and seen some of your conversations with other people and you always immediately devolve into an angry bitter person. I’ve said it to you before, but behaving like that lends no credibility to your side. I’ve had plenty of conversations with your fellow non-believers (like @I Are Lebo above) and we keep it civil. I always enjoy these deep theological and philosophical discussions, that’s why I had to call you out again. But the temperature has to come down for it to be enjoyable and productive. Thanks!
@LaDarkProphet, he was without sin he went through this as a complete innocent, and you don’t truly understand the torture of being scourged, it literally rips the skin from your body, or how heinous being crucified really is. And we are all offered that eternal paradise. You just have to be willing to take it
@Mkb617, Flogging is still a punishable public offense in the real world you moronic imbecile. And crucifixion has been around for a very long time and used on a LOT of people throughout history. And when it comes to death by torture its pretty tame. You want to educate yourself on some real fvcked up ways to die? Look at the Spanish Inquisition. Or some Native American torture techniques. Makes crucifixion look like a cake walk. Crucifixion is death by slow strangulation. Takes a few days. But Vlad the impaler could keep people alive for a week while staked. Your ignorance is showing again.
And no. Not everyone is "offered" said fairy tale paradise. Not everyone is allowed into your fairy tale after life you absolute cretin. Why don't you put down the bibble and pick up some history textbooks instead? Might learn something for once.
@Mkb617, And for the record? Children are pretty fing innocent and yet they go through some of the most heinous shiite imaginable.
Well. I mean to me Children are innocent but to you Christians, who think everyone are "sinners" and thus deserving of eternal damnation and torture, you don't believe Children to be innocent. But that is an entirely different argument I'd rather not have with a moron of your caliber.
More textbooks, less bibbles.
@LaDarkProphet, it is offered to everyone you just have to be willing to accept. And flogging and scourging are far from the same thing. You know why crucifixion had been around so long and was preferred way to torture and kill back then? Because of how heinous it actually is. The word excruciating comes directly from it. I also highly doubt you have read even close to as many textbooks as I have
@Mkb617, Your ignorance is showing again. Crucifixion was so prevalent because it was cheap and easy to do large scale. Again, Vladimir used staking because he thought crucifixion was to easy, to quick.
And no, not everyone is offered. Homsexuals, those of different faiths and those without faiths (to but name a few) are all denied access your fairy tale afterlife. Your ignorance is laughable. I doubt you have ever even seen a textbook let alone read one. Probably haven't even read your own bibble judging by the bs you've been spouting.
There are over 4,200 officially recognized main religions on this planet. And those are just the main branches. Christianity alone has over 45,000 different recognized denominations. Smh. More textbooks. Less bronze age fairy tales.
Except Jesus is God, and God made the rules for the universe. Which means He sacrificed Himself, to Himself, for a weekend, to create a loophole in the rules that He wrote, so that Christians have an easy out for forgiveness without actually taking any responsibility for their misdeeds in this life.
Sounds like a Good God to me! 😐
@I Are Lebo, If you think repentance is an easy out, then you're sorely underestimating what the repentance process actually entails.
@TheKen42, I think you’re sorely overestimating the impact repentance has on both the world around you and on your own behaviour.
Redemption doesn’t come from repentance, it comes from actually making amends and taking steps to address the harm you caused. This is true regardless of your religion.
@I Are Lebo, How could you say something so controversial yet so true. Yeah in my eyes being sorry is important but it doesn’t change anything. If you really want to do better, change your habits and stop making the same mistakes and asking for forgiveness.
Imagine you have a child and you find out he stole money from you. He says he’s sorry and he genually means it, so you forgive him. That’s great, that’s fine.
HOWEVER. If he keeps stealing your money and apologizing for it, hes clearly not sorry and just thinks he can do whatever he wants as long as he says he’s sorry. Congratulations, you’ve raised an ass hole
@I Are Lebo, Well, making amends is part of the process. To cover the whole process as I understand it: It starts with recognizing that you've done wrong, followed by feeling remorse for it, and then reconciliation (making things right), and finally resolving to not repeat the mistake.
I'll admit, many of Christianity's denominations water repentance down to simple saying sorry, and it is unfortunate that something so important is not taken seriously.
@TheKen42, there’s also the fact that repentance doesn’t actually involve the person who was actually harmed. Repentance is when you seek forgiveness from God.
Which is kind of like catching your son stealing from you, but it’s okay because you’re father forgave him.
Catholicism is probably the worst in this regard, with an easy path to righteous superiority with none of that pesky “examining the harmful consequences of your own actions” bit.
@I Are Lebo, That's part of the reconciliation bit. You can't make a thing right without apologizing to the injured party and doing what you can to repair the damage.
@TheKen42, sure, but reconciliation and repentance aren’t the same thing.
It’s like if you cheat on your spouse, you’ve both harmed your spouse and sinned against God. From the biblical perspective, it doesn’t matter what you say or do to or for your spouse going forward, if you don’t make things right with God you’re still gonna burn.
@I Are Lebo, Indeed they are not, but reconciliation is *part* of repentence (as noted a couple comments ago). Gotta do the whole thing, otherwise it means diddly squat.
- Created by someone who doesn't understand what actually happened.
Well in my perspective I think he actually did die but he came back to life in a "new form". This new form looks like the same thing b/c its almost the exact same but we already know that he died before so he did died. But HIS SPIRT or soul was still roaming and then was then brought inna "new" form. Evidence for this "new form"? Well it could be Evidence or part of his power (b/c you know, hes supposedly Gods son) but it says that he was like a ghost when we " saw" him b/c he went trough a wall but then became physical b/c we saw him touch one of the disciples. Feel free to Question my explanation. :/
@Mr Ligma Cop, my only question is what you base this on other than just wishful thinking.
@I Are Lebo, Kinda like a snake shredding it's old skin; jesus died but then came out in a "new form" not his "old skin" (was still able to keep his memory). But in Terms of "Dying" the profets began spreading the word that "Jesus died for you"; they used the word "Died"
@Mr Ligma Cop, how does this explain the empty tomb and holes in his hands and feet when he appeared to the disciples?
@meageek, You got me at the Empty Tomb but some possible explaination; When the Guards saw the light in the tomb it was actually Jesus process of Dying in a way. Aside that, the hole in his feet and arms are like the permanent things that won't go away (the pain); like when a Fox tail is cut off yet it's still alive is a permanent thing that won't be undone
@Mr Ligma Cop, interesting theory. I don't think it's a pivotal factor of the story either way, but it could be perceived as speculative "fan fiction", for lack of a better term. I appreciate the discussion though!
@Mr Ligma Cop, you’re still saying what you believe. I’m asking you why you believe it.
@Mr Ligma Cop, Jesus went bodily in to hell and eventually heaven. Other saints, including Mary, were taken bodily in to heaven.
@I Are Lebo, I think it's a Logical Belief. Based by the story we've been given one could prosume a Logical explaination. (There are few other Logical explaination but as said they are Logical)
@Mr Ligma Cop, I think you might need to define logic there, bud. Because believing in the supernatural without evidence or reason is NOT logical.
There also cannot be **other** explanations because what you just posted there is in no way an explanation.
Why do you think that Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected? Why do you think that it’s true that his spirit roams? Why do you think any of that is actually factually true?
Do you even care if your beliefs are true?
True being defined as accurately comporting to reality.
@I Are Lebo, I don't believe the existence of Supernatural, I accept the existence of the Supernatural. The Evidence and reasoning are on earth. I was showing a point of view on how God process could have been when Dying. The possibility of his spirit roaming was based on idea of calling a spirit. I never said it was true I just used some knowledge of Today's world and see how I can break down his "death". No I don't care if my belief weren't even true but I used today's knowledge for it. Of course our world knowledge is way less in explaining what happened to Jesus if he lived,died or resurrected but I was using it for a possible explaination and to me I believed it or thought this was a possible belief of what happened so I sticked with that. I'm not saying I'm right but yeah I sticked to what could've happened.
@Mr Ligma Cop, okay, that’s fine and all but you do realize that accepting something and believing something are exactly the same thing, right?
You accept what you’re told. You accept the results of evidence presented to you. You believe the conclusions based on that claim or evidence.
Whether you’re believing something based on a feeling or accepting something as true because you thought of it and therefore it’s ‘possible’, that’s the antithesis of logical.
Just because anything can be possible does not mean that everything is possible. Possibility and impossibility would have to be demonstrated before one can rationally accept either position.
@I Are Lebo, Oh I see now. Thanks for reminding me for the probability of believing and acceptance of something. But yeah I was mere more talking about Jesus death on what could've happen In my perspective of this post. Appreciate the chat.
@Mr Ligma Cop, likewise. Thank you for explaining your position
Jesus did it for the chicks.
If you’re gonna take that stance then be fair, that was one of the toughest weekends of all time.
@Unitard, given your username there’s nothing more to add here is there?