Almost all of the land of north America was uninhabited. The land that was inhabited was taken by conquest. To consider conquest invalid is to negate the very claim the natives of the time had (they conquered it from others) and to negate nearly every other nations boundaries. Americans did to the natives what they did to eachother, but we did it better.
@CHICKNUGMASTER, *gasp* so bold! And yet, so brave!
@Hot Coffee, gracias mi amigo
@CHICKNUGMASTER, that's what I never understood about this argument. Countries and empires had been invading, killing and taking land from other people native to said area for thousands of years. Most the time those people were enslaved if not raped and killed. No one cares about other parts of the world that would be entirely different today if small nations (that were still established by someone else loosing land) stay in their respective borders and never went on conquests to expand.
@CHICKNUGMASTER, and most of the native nations were warring with each other, and idk if that really counts as a society.
@ThePandaPool , uh, yeah. Haven’t you heard of a warlike society? Like, oh em gee.
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, yeah, but white people.
@ThePandaPool , society didn't exist between 1938-1945
@fudsterly, that's called based society
@CHICKNUGMASTER, it's only western colonialism that's wrong, you can't criticize POC colonialism you bigot, Turkey did nothing wrong. /s
@Mag3rPayne, the chad neocolonist
@Empshok, you do have a solid point
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, it’s because we are a first world nation and people have time to find things to cry about. Boo hoo, I have stable electricity and clean water. This country sucks!
@CHICKNUGMASTER, yet the invaders still treated the natives like shyt while acting as is they were righteous and fair. Problem is white ppl dont want to acknowledge that their race has done things to makenit harder for any other race to succeed in the USA
@Cuactemoc4919, it's based to colonize other races to benefit your own. The natives would have done it to us if they could have, but they lost that fight. Same thing with Africans.
I'll freely acknowledge that, but you have to admit that they would have done the same lol.
@CHICKNUGMASTER, yes. I just want people aka the US to admitt that yes they were cunts and still are.
@Cuactemoc4919, its not being a cunt to conquer other people unless you're the one being conquered.
@CHICKNUGMASTER, point of views. Isis and al queda are good guys in diff eyes. So is vladimir and winnie the pooh. Still want humand to acknowledges what we have done.
@Cuactemoc4919, yeah I don't think anyone should be a pussy about their history and hide stuff. I agree
@CHICKNUGMASTER, looking at you japan. theu dont acknowledge WWII
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, hmmm, Russia annexing Crimea from Ukraine could be a modern example of territorial conquest.
@CHICKNUGMASTER, The only difference in the conquest of the Americas as well as the conquest of Africa was that the technological advantage of the europeans was such that it could be considered overkill. You can take the land through war, but if the slaughter carries on through times of peace then such acts are brought into question.
@Emp4th, not only that but they made and then violated countless treaties (except they are actually countable and its wild how many there are) with individual tribes and native coalitions.
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, their point is that we (for some bizarre reason) should somehow feel ashamed to be vaguely related to people who slaughtered the natives as if somebody doesn’t have a murderer in their family tree somewhere the actions of centuries past are not our fault nor are they still an issue it is history meant to be learned from not a debt that should be repaid
@CHICKNUGMASTER, You’d be attacked in Canada for saying that. It is the truth. Also, American Indigenous people don’t even believe in land ownership. Yet, we are supposed to “give them back their land”. Aapparently there was only harmony before colonization - no war, famine, slavery, etc. that there is proof of.
@CHICKNUGMASTER, wow what an incredibly factual yet racist, sexist, bigoted, offensive, (sorry if I forgot any) white privileged thing to say. It’s almost as if you’re speaking the truth that nobody wants to hear
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, that because these days it empowering you hate in white ppl and u get praise for it and in America most ppl r too afraid to even fight back where as in other countries if u talk like that they won’t put up with it nor should they
@Mag3rPayne, or the Ottoman Empire or the Persians or Mongolians or moors or carthaginans or any other non whites
@Cuactemoc4919, idk wtf you’re smoking but white ppl r literally the only ones that have to acknowledge and apologize for what their ancestors have done even though everyone in the past is guilty at some point and even if their ancestors didn’t actually do anything. If you’re white you’re already determined to be guilty so again idk what you’re smoking but u obviously don’t know what you’re talking about
@Cuactemoc4919, seriously where have u been for the last few years clearly not america
@Cuactemoc4919, but white ppl aren’t allowed to be the good guys from any POV and you’re cool with that
@eleven, as a white man im expected to pay reparations to black ppl for slavery that my irish and italian ancestors had no part of but black ppl aren’t expected to give me reparations for their ppl raping pillaging and enslaving my Sicilian ancestors cause ya know equality
@Cuactemoc4919, there is a huge difference between acknowledging the past and letting it control the now. This stuff happened long before any of us today were alive. Yet we’re expected to act like we committed sins ourselves. Do we hold a child accountable when their parent kills someone? No. Why should I, who has done my best to treat everyone fairly and without prejudice, be forced to feel crappy and apologize for nothing? Now if a family has a ton of wealth today from a direct result of an atrocity, they should definitely help whichever community they profited off of. Myself? I’ve had no gain from any of that crap. Learn from the past, don’t sit here and apologize for something you had nothing to do with.
@bobbylupo, slave owners treated our Irish ancestors lower than slaves, there are records that tell of this, slaves had value, and it wouldn't be wise to be reckless with them, so Irish migrant workers were hired to do the dangerous work you couldn't risk injuring a slave. Such as receiving large hay bails rolled down hillsides, the slaves were the ones that got to be on the top, and the Irish downhill risking being crushed.
@Mag3rPayne, okay but was it legal to r@pe an Irishmans wife and sell his kids to someone else?
@Cuactemoc4919, moral relativism on this subjuct is unfounded. By your own admission the native indigenous people of the Americas need to be held to the same standard as the conquering population.
Rape, murder, slavery. Most of which hit soft targets.
If it neutral to say the trail of tears was bad. Then let's look at the forced relocation in conduction of a socialist state under the same circumstances.
The Young Turks, forced a draft on there Armenian population. Forced them into Suicidal missions. When they were done, they'd be killed. They went back to the homes of the Armenians and did forced conversion on the spot. Any that didn't become Muslim was forced on a death March.
America, recognized The Sovereign Nation of the Indian people. They had came to protest under US law. The US gave them safe heaven, but it was at the fairest reaches of the US. Several people died, and many people made it.
To say both is wrong is fine, however one is evil on it's face.
@Cuactemoc4919, in the same vein, pointing to isis and al queda. To only say some people support them is folly. Because they are terrorists, if you don't support them, they kill you.
So did Russia
So did China
So did North Korea
America shouldn't have this problem. That's why down playing the atrocities of these other nations is so damned demonstrable. For these moral frame works, you put yourself on the side of evil as a useful idiot.
To say otherwise is foolish.
@MathMan, yes because there were Irish slaves too, ya dingbat.
@Cuactemoc4919, that’s kind of what it means to “conquer” something…
@Mag3rPayne, I'm aware, but you're were saying the Irish were lower then slaves, implying the group you refer to are not Infact slaves. As not slaves/indentured they would have rights & privileges
@MathMan, the Irish were used for different types of work, some were indentured, some were slaves, used as whores. I don't say this for it to take away from the black slave experience, just to highlight that while, yes African slaves had no freedom, the Irish were treated as disposable life.
@Cuactemoc4919, why don’t you fix your own sh!t instead of blaming all your problems on race?
@Mag3rPayne, ya a bunch of Irish historians have been pushing back against that claim for a long time https://limerick1914.medium.com/open-letter-to-irish-central-irish-examiner-and-scientific-american-about-their-irish-slaves-3f6cf23b8d7f#.tb66klcft
@Thone09, congrats, you learned how to use Google to substitute research. Read the open letter that was used as pushback, all they literally say, "we won't tell you why the theory is wrong, that is your job!"(paraphrase). It was the societal pressure, not historical, that caused the news outlets to correct.
@CHICKNUGMASTER, so if i go conquer you i should get the land your own? Oh wait that illegal now since white people own most land.
@Mag3rPayne, that’s was a bunch of historical professors compared to you I’m going to go on the side of the professors vs a kid that did the same thing I did.
@Thone09, that's okay, just think that it was 80 people out of billions
@Mag3rPayne, I’ve explained it just like that several times and ppl always say I’m racist and ignorant but the Irish were called the new ni***rs because they treated them as beneath slaves like u said but white ppl aren’t allowed to have a say in the situation at all
A better response would be that there was no law telling them they couldn’t come, so not illegal.
@thejamesshow00, thank you for having reasoning
Man the 2nd person did not at all say what number 3 said he said
I feel like no one’s actually reading the second message. It’s saying whites funded development of America. And more than that, they didn’t say they “created society in America” they said “you can’t immigrate into a society you created”. As in the founders of America aren’t immigrants because the country didn’t exist yet.
Don’t get me wrong, I know we weren’t the first society here, but that’s not even what they were saying.
@AceWolf456, but do u see how easily ppl twist things around and try to either play the victim or try to make u look racist
Hard to say white people didn’t establish the United States when there were no states or territorial boundaries before whites got here…white people created the governmental entity that is the United States.
@weneedacrusade, Did you just say something pro-White? That’s racist
It’s called conquest, and it’s been the MO of humans since the beginning of time.
Whether or not the Europeans stole the land it doesn’t change the fact that they did establish the society we have today the natives had nothing to do with that
Even if the settlers were illegal immigrants (they weren't, as there were no laws in place about immigration), white people that were born in America aren't. We were born here after the fact, making us native to this country.
Well technically the natives didn't have what we would colloquially call a society yet. Would they have gotten their eventually? Mabey but they weren't their yet so what the settlers created would be the first.
@Hagasay, nah man don’t forget about the Inca, Olmec, and Aztec empires. They’re pretty societish if I do say so myself.
Edit: oh oh and if you just wanna focus on North America I recommend traveling to Mississippi. The indigenous people (mostly people of the six nations) there build their houses on these square man-made hills and there’s still some left. They’re not a ton of structures left, but the museums in the area are really cool.
@dandyhandy, I didn't learn much about them in school (we mainly focused on the history of the natives to our specific state) but did they have territory inside what would come the be the U.S. borders?
@Hagasay, yeah, lots of them! Not every tribe was nomadic- after all, the pilgrims picked up farming techniques from someone. I’ve only learned about a few of the tribes in the south, and most of that was through cultural osmosis, so I’m not the best educator on this. However most of the famous pre columbian societies (inca, maya, olmec) are in central America, not north America.
@Hagasay, native societies were actually very advanced. (A little -in the weeds history lesson)— initially, European explores praises there complex societies: there structure/ women in power/ agriculture techniques etc: but those in power said, “eehh-hmmm; god (Bible) says we can’t do horrible things to our fellow man…. Are you SURE they are a complex society???). Then months later all the praise disappeared & turned into “savages, savages, barely even human. We’re doing them a favor: we’ll take over there stuff & teach them to be human.” It’s was just successful propaganda. It’s easier to kill “savages “ . It would Be f”ed up to kill humans with less technology . (And the initial letters from European explores proves it. With no bias they knew the natives societies were a complex & that they were people.
@dandyhandy, the idea that pilgrims learned about agriculture is a myth. The pilgrims largely came from the farming class in britain. They didn't know about specific crops like corn, but they understood agriculture as a whole better than the natives
@CHICKNUGMASTER, I agree with you but haven’t heard anyone arguing that the pilgrims were complete novices with farming (except maybe an oversimplified children’s version).
If you don’t mind a small tangent I just wanted to share a little to the conversation. A tribe in South America (the Yanomami) have been recorded as practicing a type of ... nomadic agriculture. They move across a wide range of forest and burn sections down behind them (sometimes). By the time they come back to this section the fruit and game has grown back or new, more productive trees have replaced the older ones. They don’t plant in rows but they do cultivate and guide the land so the regrowth is most favorable.
Minor speculation: I believe it’s been theorized that strategies like this may have arrived following the failure of earlier city based cultures to provide a diverse diet to long term dense populations. The limits of American plants did not easily support civilizations that look like Rome or Istanbul
@dandyhandy, idk about the Olmec but the Inca and Aztecs were conquered by Spain which isn’t really white according to some ppl plus they weren’t in the US and nobody’s saying there weren’t societies here just not the one that Europeans founded
@Monter408, it’s funny how powerful societies always call anyone different from themselves either savages or barbarians
@CHICKNUGMASTER, they try and make it as though the native Americans were the only society that knew how to farm
Replace "society" with "civilization" and then it's right
Also, to those following the graves in Canada: reports are coming out that these were community grave sites that were very much known about. Elders knew about these. That these people received funerals and not all were from the school. The one with semi-missing stones were like that because they were redoing the graveyard and it is the families job to provide gravestones. In small towns, typically a community member volunteers to take care of the site, that did not occur in these reserves. Not saying this is the case for all of them (children did die due to illness and running away), but there is some serious media work going on that people are leaning right into. Heck, I am guilty before I dug a little deeper into it. It is a case of “white man bad” everyone else perfect.k
A finite group of humans funded the US. Literally all of the people born inside it since then have had no say where on the globe they were gonna pop up or what their lives are like—just like everyone else.
*peeks head out of cave*
“Everything seems in in order here.”
*back to cave*
Yeah, I don't really understand how the British at one point were trying to like take over the world. Its such a tiny island! But I blame the weather, if you lived in England, you'd wanna invade some people to. The Scots however? Mostly just wanna live in our hills or get away from the English lol.
@Kaywinnet, I don’t get it either England is so small and the population is tiny compared to other countries and yet they had the most powerful and largest armies in the world for almost 1000 years now
More self loathing being pumped out daily
@SWAT the fireman, ha
You people weren’t doing anything with the land, so we did.
The systemic racism in the comments is real today 😂
@Chifilo, if you have to ask why it’s racist, you’re literally guaranteed to be a racist yourself and incapable of learning better so I won’t wast my time on you worthless fks. Unalive in a ditch 🖕🏻
Y’all didn’t even have the wheel before the white man came
Anyone with a history book could tell you that. The US government didn't consider natives as US citizens until 1924. Hard to shape a country that you have been excluded from for the first 128 years.