First I thought 18 was adult. Then I thought 21 was adult. Then I thought 24 was adult. Now I’m 27 and I’m still fumbling through life 👍
@VibratingButtChomper, im 26 and i still feel the same as around the era after i graduated high school, only with more money, knowledge, and responsibilites
@VibratingButtChomper, don’t worry you’ll figure it out at 30.
@slapmysalami, you have money?! I'm turning 27 next week and I'm broke
@BigJohnson86, **insert lost John Travolta meme** am 30. Is lie.
. It’s about body and mental development and proven effects of chems on it and the lack of long term decision making and understanding of consiquences in the brain(the last real major thing to develop)Really all of those things should prolly be closer to 25. Better make it 30 to be safe.
@thejamesshow00, I'm a random person, and I approve this message.
@thejamesshow00, all of that applies to voting too.
@thejamesshow00, I seriously doubt they can prove that a significant portion of over 21s actually have any concept of long term decision making, the difference is that by 21 they are not legally bound to give a sh1t anymore.
@Doctor Yak, beat me to it.
My belief is if an 18 year old is going off to serve in our military, that should get them exempt from the 21 minimum age for drinking and sh!t. As my dad puts it: "you can die for us at 18 but can't have a beer? That's not just asinine, that's asi-fourteen!"
@HollywoodxGhost, your dad sounds awesome
Haha, remember when they wanted to lower the voting age because of Trump?
@Sir Borksalot , the talk of lowering the voting age has been around since before President Trump. There was even a “The West Wing” episode were some kids asked about it and even asked President Bartlett about it during a press conference.
@Mkb617, but then trumpers couldn't be irrationally mad about made up liberal points.
@hollow114, google Nancy Pelosi wants to lower voting age. Just because you only pay attention to 33% of the news doesn’t mean it’s not true.
@big freedom, yeah and they've been calling for it before Trump. Like the dude said. So made up trumper crybaby things are made up. "Orange man bad"
@hollow114, I love how you use “irrationally” and trumpers. Read the David Brooks article in the NYT. “Trump has made us all stupid” get past the headline and realize who he’s talking about.
@big freedom, when I meet a rational trumper I'll get back to you and apologize for everything I've said. Hasn't happened yet. I'm sure they existed in 2016. But most intelligent people have figured out the guy who's lied 15,000 times might not be trustworthy.
@hollow114, lmao. You’re in the same protected bubble the rest of the media was in in 2016.
Sure pal, half the country is irrational, and you’re the sane one. That doesn’t sound ridiculously irrational AT ALL.
Read the brooks article.
@big freedom, it's less than 26% of the country. Less than Clinton if you remember. And yes, Trump's whole campaign was based on irrational fears. Fear of immigrants, fear of Muslims, fear of change. It's all fear. oh and I don't think Trump's approval rating ever broke 50%. #winning
@hollow114, no. It wasn’t. It was a big FU to the media and entrenched government class.
I’ll bet you he wins again. I honestly hope so. Because the media haven’t learned a goddamn thing. I didn’t vote for Trump in ‘16 but I am this year. And I live in a swing state.
Since i was a kid I always pictured the real age of adulthood at 25 because that’s when you can rent a car
People rag on liberals but God if conservatives don't just take everything at face value. In order.
Military has been around much longer than these laws. Smoking age was increased to 21 because of chemical effects on the brain, and to keep 18yo's from buying it for their highschool friends. 16 is the voting age in many countries, and doesn't involve chemicals or dying. And voting is a constitutional right unlike smoking, and you still have to register and have a SS number. An ID has been proven 100x over as just being classist.
@hollow114, the problem with republicans is that they lie about being fiscally conservative. The problem with Democrats, is that they tell the truth about the ridiculous laws they want to enact.
@hollow114, if you are old enough to fight in a war and die for your country, you can you are old enough to determine what you put in your body. humans have a right to put whatever chemicals they want into their body. its their body. the government has no right to tell me what i can and cant do to my own body. also its literally law that you must carry a valid id on you at all times so its not classist to require on when doing something you must be a citizen to do
@Master Discord, "the government can't tell me what to do with my body.". "also the government can mandate I carry id at all times". The latter of which isn't true. At all. Ever. Never ever. Not ever. Has it been a law.
@hollow114, so rather than mention any of my other points, you hit the one that i was mistaken on. and there ARE plenty of time you are required to carry id on you. its just not at all times.
@Master Discord, you only made two points. One was the government can't tell me what to do. Followed by asking the government to tell you what to do. So I'm not sure how to argue that.
@hollow114, actually, i made 3 points. 1) the government can't govern what goes into my body
2)that goes double if I'm allowed to fight in their wars
3) we already require ID's to do things that we don't let every body do, so why is voting any different?
@Master Discord, again your last point keeps contradicting the others. So I'm not sure what to argue. You've made an argument for me. That being said. There's absolutely no proof that voter fraud happens. However, there is proof that the GoP employs voter suppression tactics. So. You pick the more oppressive option.
@hollow114, you are acting like i can't be against gop supressing voters and also believe that requiring an id to vote to reduce the risk of voter fraud is a good idea. the last two don't contradict each other. like at all. if i choose to drink, I'm only effecting myself. if i choose to drive without the proper education and testing, I'm endagering everyone around me
@Master Discord, except the only people without ID are poor people. Have you voted before? If I go in and give my name they mark it off. If it's been marked off that raises a red flag.
@hollow114, if they mark off everyones name no matter political party or vote, how is that a red flag? votes are anonymous. they can mark your name off all they want but unless they actively tamper with the machine to ignore your vote(which is highly illegal), nothing changes. if you wana argue that IDs should be more readily availibe to people without transportation, the money to pay, etc. then i will agree with you. doesn't change my stance that we should require proof of citizenship as well as a way to just add in a little more security to make sure people don't vote multiple times
@hollow114, how is “it’s not the government’s job to determine what goes into my body” a contradiction to “we need ID to vote”?
What goes into my body has no effect on anyone but me. By voting, I get to impose my will on others.
The one that kills the rest is honestly the smoking one. I don’t think it’s a horrible argument that 18 yr olds shouldn’t be fighting in wars when they are probably mostly just out of school and still living with parents. The smoking laws at 21 have nothing to do with “maturity” as it it commonly used and insinuated here. It has to do with the health risks and the fact that people aren’t fully physically mature until you are 25ish.
@Mkb617, government has no right to tell me what i can and can't put in my body. my body, my choice
@Master Discord, science has said you're not old enough. Meanwhile Germany the age of consent is like 14. It's all relative. 18 was an arbitrary number picked (most likely) because of the military thing.
@hollow114, science can say I'm not old enough and the government can educate me on that and reccomend that i don't, but at the end of the day, its my body. not theirs so they can keep their overreaching ass out of it
@Master Discord, so if you had a young kid that wanted to take something dangerous for them that could hurt or kill them you would let them because it is their body and their choice? And before you argue that you aren’t a kid and would be protecting your kid when they don’t know enough to protect themselves, that’s what the government would argue as well. Before you are 25 ish your brain hasn’t even fully formed yet. The physical structure of your brain makes it so that you don’t have as much impulse control as you will later in life. Just like you would protect a young child until they are old enough to know when something may or may not hurt them, the government is protecting you from yourself
@Mkb617, the government is not, and should not be, our parents. The government is not supposed to protect people from themselves, just from each other. It exists to protect our rights, not proscribe them.
@Doctor Yak, in the preamble of the constitution it states that part of the purpose of the constitution is to “promote the general welfare.” Providing for the health and safety of our children would and should be included in that
@Doctor Yak, I am pretty sure it is not illegal for a teen to grow their own, or have their parents grow tobacco and then smoke it. Being able to buy cigarettes is not a “right”
@Mkb617, smoking specifically might not be a right, but self determination is, and smoking falls into that category. It arguably falls into the category of "the pursuit of happiness" as well.
But regardless of "rights", it's beyond the scope of what the government is supposed to be here for. They are supposed to be here to protect us from foreign attackers and domestic violence, and to guarantee our rights are not infringed upon. It does not exist to be a model of morality that everyone must abide by.
@Doctor Yak, I never said smoking was a morals thing at all. I said that those under 25 do not have fully developed brains. Cigarettes are known to kill you and to be a public health threat. Taking care of those who have health issues that can easily be led back to tobacco use costs us as taxpayers millions, if not billions, each year.
@Mkb617, it doesn't need to cost us money, but that's beside the point. If we're going to base adulthood (because that's the issue at hand here, the definition of adulthood) on mental development, then it should be uniform in its application, i.e. voting and military. If you are considered an adult, you should be able to do what you want to yourself, because you are responsible for yourself now, rather than your parents being responsible for you as a child. If you let the government be responsible for you, you are still a child.
@Doctor Yak, I agree that young men shouldnt lbe going off to fight and die when they are barely, or not at all, out of high school and their parents house. Voting is a little more difficult because a lot of times issues that are voted on now have impact that can last for years or decades. This issue as I commented on it wasn’t about who is an adult. I was commenting on the question of whether the government, or anyone else, has a right or responsibility, or moral obligation to stop someone from hurting themselves when they may or may not be at a point where they can make that decision correctly. You may believe we have a right to suicide but if you saw someone about to kill themselves would you just say “ oh well it’s their choice” or would you try to convince them to change their mind or call the authorities?
@Doctor Yak, I don’t believe in the “ well if they can fight and die in war at 18 they should be able to drink and smoke,” I don’t believe they should be able to fight and die in war at 18
@Doctor Yak, for the record, I respect your opinion and your right to it, I just disagree
@Mkb617, 1/2 if I know them and I like them, I'll try to convince them not to do it, but I'd never call the authorities, because it's no one else's business beyond them and the people they know. I think people should be allowed to kill themselves if they want. As long as they aren't hurting anyone else it's fine. I think as soon as you start imposing your will on someone else you're generally in the wrong, even if your will is to keep them from killing themselves.
And you need to stop comparing adults to children, because they are two fundamentally different things. Adults shouldn't be treated like children. It's insulting, and it only makes for weak, incompetent "kidults" that are incapable of self determination. Children should not be given the responsibility of adults because they are naive and ignorant. They don't understand how the world works, they just know what they've been told to think. Obviously, there are exceptions, but in general it's true.
@Mkb617, 2/2 Going back to the suicide thing, kids attempting to kill themselves is not the same as adults trying to kill themselves. Kids, as idiots, are not responsible for their actions, and therefore do not have the right to do as they choose with their bodies. Until they become an adult, their parents are supposed to be responsible for them, and can therefore decide what they can and can't do with their bodies.
However, when someone is an adult they are responsible for their actions, and thus allowed to do as they choose, because they must accept the consequences. It behooves an adult to understand the potential consequences of an action before doing it, but they still have to accept the consequences of their actions even if they're ignorant. And so if an adult wants to kill themselves, I think they should be allowed to. I think their friends and family should probably discourage it, but they shouldn't get in trouble for trying to kill themselves, and it's none of the gov's biz.
@Mkb617, I also respect your right to your opinion, I just hope you don't vote to take away more people's freedom to be idiots.
@Doctor Yak, I don’t vote against rights at all, and honestly I think by 18 or 19 most people are at a point that they should be able to make their own decisions. The argument about being an adult or a kid though is something that could honestly be looked at in a few ways. What makes a person an adult? An arbitrary age that we as a society decide on? When they reach puberty? Some sort of test to whether they can take care of themselves? There is definitely an argument that could be made that since the brain isn’t fully developed until 25ish that should be considered an adult.
@Mkb617, I agree that the adulthood thing could be argued till the cows come home. And I'm really hoping that happens with this recent change to the law. I'm not opposed to the idea of raising the age of adulthood to 21 across the board, or even 25 for the sake of science, but I don't like the idea of the government deciding what is best for its populace, and saying that adults (18 by most legal standards) aren't allowed to have bodily autonomy.
I just want consistency.
Its not younger is it? Since when are kids younger than 18 allowed to vote?
Imagine having opinions like this without understanding outlying factors.
@hollow114, imagine letting the government decide what is best for you, even though they told us for years that sugar is better for us than meat and we should eat 8 servings of carbs per day.
@big freedom, is your argument that smoking is good for you?
@hollow114, that’s what you took from that? Typical. You work for CNN or something?
NO! IDGAF if something is good for me or not. That’s MY decision to make. Period.
Fûcking nanny statists think that they can decide for everyone what they should and shouldn’t do.
Joined at 17, smoking by 19, drinking by 20, and withdrawal symptoms by 26. I started out pretty good.