So, hypothetically, in this age where identity and character boil down to your choice in gender only, if a man who wishes to be identified as a woman but without the sex change because he believes that he has a genetic abnormality is asked to prove it, then gets a test which claims he is a regular male, is he allowed to continue to claim to be a woman or is that gender disphoria? Sorry for the long post
@Sambob, Idk but that's logic and they don't like that too much.
@Sambob, I believe the term is mental retardation
@Sambob, Sounds to me like it's just wishing really hard to be the opposite sex and science telling you to stop bjtching about your biology and do something about it or get over it
@Sambob, It's gender dysphoria if it lasts longer than 6 months. I searched it one time.
@Sambob, What? I never was confused at that age and anybody who was had Gender Dysphoria. If the boy grows a va gin a and a womb and start having a period, the he can join the Girl Scouts. If a girl can grow a pen is and balls that produce the means for procreation along with the necessary amount of testosterone needed for her to develop, the she can join the Boy Scouts. Just saying you are something you identify with is stupid. There was a 52 year old Canadian man that identified as a 6 year old girl. Is he one?
@Professor Xavier, you do know that you don't have to censor genitalia on this app correct, you can say penis or vagina
@Under The Gloves , bitch dick asshole cunt pussy tit
@Dexios S Divine, what he said
@Sambob, its gender dysphoria no matter what
@Under The Gloves , Well f$&& me!
@Sambob, you can claim to be what ever you want it does not make you it but il call you what ever you want to be called just call.me god
@Sambob, I mean, he can have his plastic surgery if he wants, but as soon as he stops taking those pills that stop testosterone from working, and those other pills that make estrogen work better, and those other pills that make more estrogen, he's gonna be even more manly than he already is.
@HiroAntagonist, but the point is that there are those who claim to be the opposite sex due to genetic conditions but choose not to pursue a sex change, claiming that it isn't necessary in order to be the other sex. My question is that if they tried to prove it, but get tests back indicating they 100% male or female, can they continue their identity charade or do they need mental help and support?
@Dexios S Divine, you didn't say bjtch or djck with a j? You fvcking heretic.
@Sambob, @Sambob, They need mental help or support either way. Whether they want to accept it or not, transgenderism *oh so surprisingly* is a lot like gender dysphoria in that it's comorbid with major depressive disorder. Considering that people with MDD are nearly 20 times more likely to attempt suicide, that gender dysphoria is a strong symptom of MDD, and that there's a high incidence of suicide in the transgender community, help is *always* needed.
But I get what you're saying. I'm also of the opinion people are allowed to call themselves whatever they want. But you're not getting into the girl scouts when you're 30 years old and have a penis just because you identify as an eight year old girl with pigtails. Especially not be a den mother or whatever they're called. Preach acceptance all you want, but how many mothers would actually be cool with letting their little girls spend the night supervised by Stephen just because now he goes by Sharon?
@Sambob, Who know man. Maybe in the future they'll invent some kind of sex change machine that works even on a genetic level and we can put all these issues to bed for good.
@Sambob, just saw your comment and am very disappointed (but not surprised) that literally nobody here tried to engage in legitimately trying to discuss a complex issue. Your hypothetical individual, if proven to be a 100% biological man, may still be claiming that they identify with a *gender* that's separate from their sex, since gender and sex are 2 different things. So with the Boy Scouts, I'm assuming that the trans community is wondering if "Boy" means a biological boy or boy as in "gender." A test can obviously find if someone is genetically a boy, but it's difficult to test for gender (with the current definition). I'm not making an argument for either side, I'm just pretty sure that's the issue at hand. A couple things I do know though are that the psychiatric community does not think all trans people have a mental disorder and gender dysphoria is only diagnosed if an individual is experiencing severe distress.
@Blue Shirted Guy, Gender dysphoria as a diagnosis, yes. Gender dysphoria as a symptom, no. It's a form of dissociation that can be linked to numerous other issues, as mentioned.
The concept of there being a biological and mental difference is purely philosophical. Of course a person is allowed to believe whatever they want about themselves. It doesn't mean anything, though. They should definitely get screenings and treatment for medical problems that effect the actual gender they are, regardless of if they have their genitals operated on.
They should also receive counseling for any issues they might develop from lack of acceptance or however they want to couch it, as clinical depression (as opposed to "people being mean" depression) is common in the trans community but definitely not linked to anything.
@HiroAntagonist, that's not how psychiatry works. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness that can be diagnosed, it's not *also* a symptom of something. The *symptoms* of gender dysphoria would be stress, anxiety, and depression. Not all trans people have these to a large enough degree.
Your 2nd paragraph doesn't take into account the difference between sex and gender. When you say "actual gender," that doesn't make sense with the new definitions. Gender is a social construct, so if someone feels that their gender doesn't align with their sex, you may think it's silly or wrong but that doesn't make it a mental disorder.
Your 3rd paragraph just entirely shows your bias. I have no bias and am trying to understand this issue the best I can. To say clinical depression in the trans community is not linked to anything... are you kidding? Of course it is! Please try to address this issue from an objective standpoint so you don't say things like that. I can link you to studies if you wish
@HiroAntagonist, I just read this comment. You have absolutely no idea how psychiatry works. Gender dysphoria is comorbid with major depressive disorder because depression is perhaps the most important criterion in diagnosing gender dysphoria. Many people in the trans community suffer from depression, so of course many of them have major depressive disorder and therefore gender dysphoria. Because they are under distress. So you have part of the trans community doing perfectly fine and then some who, if they have gender dysphoria, most likely have major depressive disorder (and vice versa). "Transgenderism" is not a mental disorder unless they have the distress to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, which is one. It's not inherently causing depression. That can be tested. That's why it's not a mental disorder. Do you understand this?
@Blue Shirted Guy, To the first, and I quote, "Dysphoria is a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation." A distinction *is* made between *clinical* gender dysphoria, which as you said causes extreme psychological reaction, but then dysphoria goes on to be linked as a *symptom* with multiple specific and spectrum disorders. Since it means general discomfort with oneself. So, again, a clinical version diagnosable in the DSM-5 that's been recognized since the DSM-III, and part of a symptom that's been recognized just as long.
"Social construct" meaning "mental perception" is all well and good. "Biology" and "genetic makeup" is the most accurate marker. Again, call yourself what you wish. But if you have your penis and testes removed, take a handful of testosterone suppressants and estrogen boosters, you still need to get that prostate checked.
@Blue Shirted Guy, The third paragraph was almost entirely sarcastic. But I appreciate you taking things far too seriously.
My point entirely was that there *is* a lot of clinical depression in the community, and that perhaps the chicken and egg scenario is that the community exists because of the clinical depression, rather than the opposite.
@HiroAntagonist, *dysphoria* is different from *gender dysphoria* which is an official disorder. You are getting confused. I appreciate that you are trying to look things up but your bias is preventing you from properly learning about the issue objectively. I know I sound like a jackass but it's so obvious that you have very strong pre-conceived beliefs.
Biology and genetic makeup determine sex, not gender. I'm not saying that because it's my opinion, that's now the scientific definition. A biological man who feels that his gender does not align may feel the need to sexually change to a woman to feel more comfortable. I completely agree with you that they would still need to get their prostate checked. Nothing about that changes. Most trans people understand this. The ones who don't are very stupid, just like any other stupid person
@Blue Shirted Guy, Lol, there's no bias here, friend. We're talking different levels of discomfort. It's no different than levels of dissociation or depersonalization. A person can look in a mirror and not recognize themselves and think "huh that's weird" and it be one level of dissociation, whereas another magnitude would be having a panic attack because a stranger is in the mirror.
I'm still not seeing where we're disagreeing. One's physical, the other exists in the mind.
@HiroAntagonist, sex and gender are 2 different things. One is biological, one is a social construct. If you disagree with the new definitions, then we probably disagree on the entire topic, because that's where it all starts. Most of our discussion though isn't really "disagreeing," it's more of just discussing the topic.
Ben Shapiro is my boy
@TimeGlazedTsar, based Jew
@RustyFapwagon, I just laughed so hard at your name. That is just pure gold. 😂
@TimeGlazedTsar, best conservative commentator ever.
@MrLampoon, he's great, but I think that title belongs to Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell.
@TimeGlazedTsar, you can't win against Ben Shapiro in an argument
As a woman who as always identified as such. I was always sad I couldn't join the Boy Scouts. They got to go camping, and build fires, and learn to navigate, and learn about ropes and knots. It sounded like a blast. I told my parents and they signed me up for the Girl Scouts. I learned to make friendship bracelets and paint purses. ☹️
@ArtistAtPlay, I know a number of girls that felt that way so they joined venture groups so they could do the outdoors stuff
@ArtistAtPlay, there is a group associated with the Boy Scouts called High Adventure and the only restriction is you have to be at least 13. Also when my Boy Scout crew went on high adventure activities we sometimes had girls in our crew even though they weren't Boy Scouts. Doesn't help you now but at least it's available for others
@ArtistAtPlay, sucks when that happens, though I think most clubs now are becoming all inclusive. At least here in the U.K. It's just one of those things that change with the times thankfully. Like they no longer care if you dangle or are tucked in.
@ArtistAtPlay, if it makes you feel any better all I did in scouts was makes leather coin pouches and play darts. My troop leader was terrible.
@ArtistAtPlay, There are other organizations that do similar things to the scouts but are unisex. You gotta remember that the scouts organization is a private organization, so they can run it however they want and shouldn't be forced by the public to change.
@ArtistAtPlay, I was in a group called "venture crew" associated with the boy scouts but was unisex and only did the cool trips
@ArtistAtPlay, you should have been able to. The mission statement of the BSA is to and I quote "prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout oath and law". As an Eagle Scout who spent most of my childhood in the program, I believe anyone who declares that the aforementioned mission statement should not pertain to any youth for whatever reason is bastardizing the scouting way and should not be in a position of leadership. I'm sorry you were not able to participate.
@ArtistAtPlay, See that's a fair point to make, but that's not the Boy Scouts fault, that's the fault of the Girl Scouts
If you have a dangleang you a boi if you have an axe wound you a girl, why is it so hard
You must a biological Boy Scout to be in the Boy Scouts, it's written in the name
@oldmancreepyjackson, the mission statement of the bsa is to prepare YOUTH to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling them with the values of the scout oath and law. As an Eagle Scout myself I can't disagree with you more- the purpose of this program is to help raise better citizens and that should always be open to any youth. Any excuse otherwise is in direct conflict with the Scout way.
My school didn't allow him to speak due to security concerns
@JayCutlersDeadGhost, probably more like "feelings" concerns
@TeaEarlGreyHot, ironically these "security concerns" don't actually have anything to do with the speakers themselves, the security issues only arise because they can't control their own students from losing their minds at hearing *gasp!* other people's opinions that differ from theirs.
The more I learn about it the more I think transgender people have a mental illness, and if we accept and promote it that would be similar to saying that a schizophrenic should be accepted instead of helped when they have auditory and visual hallucinations. I have a degree in anthropology if that gives any merit to my statement to those of you who are triggered, so yes I have studied it pretty thoroughly
@Silver6456, there's no way to prove one form of consciousness is superior to another, transgender, nontransgender, schizophrenics, they don't need help, everyone is simply existing, what is this mental illness you talk of, being cis gendered is just as much in your head as being transgender, in fact all of it, everything you perceive, is all in your head so again please explain and prove why some forms of perception are considered Ill and others aren't because I just don't see a way to be objective about this or anything really
@oldmancreepyjackson, it think it boils down to the way or species as evolved to survive. Certain traits are present in each sex to help them reach maturity, which is when they can begin to reproduce with one another to further continue our species. If the individuals start rejecting their cis duties to pass down their genes to the next generation, basically, they have failed evolution and their species. That's the technical way i see it. I'm not gonna tell you to change your ways if you wanna wear a horse head and a skirt if that's what you like, i'll judge you a little bit if you actually think you're a biological school girl- horse hybrid.
@oldmancreepyjackson, your dna codes your sex and gender, stop already.
@Silver6456, a degree in anthropology isn't one in psychology and is certainly not enough to be recklessly suggesting a diagnoses of mental illness. Don't claim otherwise.
@Chillin on Altis, the American Psychiatric Association literally states "gender nonconformity is not a mental disorder" and people here still cling to their beliefs. Someone on here claimed to me that all trans people have schizophrenia. After admitting that they didn't even know the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia, they claimed that trans people must have a combination of a bunch of different mental disorders. The ignorance on this topic is astounding.
@Chillin on Altis, many claim that gender is a social construct, and with an area of study that explores social constructs I would say that I actually do have some authority here. There's a lot of overlap in psychology, sociology, and anthropology because we all study human behavior. I know I'm not a clinical psychologist but I understand human behavior pretty well
@Silver6456, it's great you think you understand human behavior but interestingly enough that categorically does not give you the experience or understanding to make a declaration of mental illness. It's academically flawed, vain, and bankrupt. Unless you are in the field of psychology and have experience with the DSMV(that's how legitimate diagnosis are made, as opposed to people just sorta guessing and using false claims of authority) then you have NO place to attempt to diagnose a psychological disorder, REGARDLESS of expressed OPINIONS by any party suggesting gender is a social construct. If you're really someone who has a scientific degree I honestly shouldn't have to even be explaining to you why this is academically unacceptable. Dentists do not diagnose heart conditions, regardless of the fact that it's a medical field.
@Blue Shirted Guy, I completely agree. This idiot has a degree in anthropology for christs sake he should know full well how academically bankrupt it is for him to attempt a psychological diagnosis of mental illness with no understanding of the DSM or any experience in psychology! Honestly the anatomical science has become to hard for me to follow with all the xy chromosome this and male female that but I know full well that I am in no position to go making a declaration like that especially if I am unqualified. It's honestly disappointing because you would think someone with a degree would have a more developed understanding of why it's inappropriate to make declarations like that- it's something I would expect from someone uneducated but this is a person with a degree. Honestly it's disheartening this could come from within the scientific community.
@DrDisastor, im glad you've noticed, and doesn't everything in existence have its very own unique dna "code"? Don't be concerned with trying to categorize an infinite universe like when you talk about sex and gender conceptions. just know that you are apart of it in your own ways and others have the space to exist in their own ways
@Chillin on Altis, your 2 comments are BY FAR the most intelligent statements Ive seen anybody make on here. I've tried telling people the same thing and everyone clings to their opinions on topics they have absolutely no expertise in. It's infuriating. I try approaching almost every scientific debate the same way. I try my best to simply present facts that come from relevant, respected sources. In this instance, that would be the DSM, American Psychiatric Institute, etc. All I get back from people who don't "agree" is the same ol' "authority logical fallacy" that makes them think that their opinions are just as valid as facts that come from the legitimate scientific field. But people now are claiming that science is "politicized" and simply reject any findings that go against their pre-conceived beliefs. Ugh. Sorry for the rant, but you seem to be one of the few geniuses who won't make a declaration if they aren't qualified. It's like finding a unicorn on here
@Blue Shirted Guy, well first I'm pretty far from a genius but thanks. In today's political climate the only thing I trust anymore is science. Not democrats or republicans, just the science. So it angers me when I see someone misusing it. If you're ever on the FP discord hit me up you seem like a swell fellow.
@Chillin on Altis, well, you're at least a genius compared to many. Thanks, you as well. Will do!
@Chillin on Altis, and if you understand how science works it's not "against the rules" for someone with knowledge in one field to propose a hypothesis to be further explored by another. Your reasoning would also mean that a mechanical engineer would be considered academically flawed, vain, and bankrupt for pointing out a potential issue in an electrical engineer's work. They would both have very similar base knowledge so it's ridiculous and short sighted to think that one discipline can't do preliminary work in another. Do you have any sort of higher education in a relevant field? Anthropology covers biology and behavior, and many of my classes were focused on human sex and evolution. So this is not "kinda guessing" but an educated deduction after studying the minute differences between cultural standards and individual deviation.
@Silver6456, perhaps my example was flawed but you're not proposing a simple hypothesis you're making a broad declaration from a different field that is in conflict with already preexisting and widely accepted studies from within the field suggesting otherwise- the mechanical engineer is correcting the electrical engineer on an issue that electrical engineers have already decided is not an issue. It's academically bankrupt because of the specific form of the declaration- it's a proposition of a diagnosis of mental illness, not a malfunctioning fuse box. Part of the issue is that you don't seem to have any experience with how to diagnose a mental illness and part of the issue is that you have apparently very little understanding of the weight of that sort of a statement, another reason why it should be left to psychologists. I have no other experience than one year in AP Psychology and I have the good sense to know just based one literally a year of a high school class that A) mental il
@Chillin on Altis, I take it you haven't gone through advanced education if this is honestly how you think a scientific (or any academic) system operates. You're relying on an appeal to authority, with that authority being clinical psychologists. Of course they're the best trained at spotting and diagnosing mental illness, but it's close minded and simply wrong to think that they're the only people with any ability to spot potential issues of mental health. I'm not claiming to be a psychologist diagnosing the issues but I know I can spot a few. And as much as we'd like to live in the fairytale world that science stays objective, it's absolutely not true. Conclusions can and have been altered because the group funding the research will threaten to pull it. It's a constant battle in the scientific community since research isn't cheap. So don't think psychology is some untouchable practice in an ivory tower when it is just as capable of being manipulated by outside politics
@Chillin on Altis, lness has a sad history of stigmatization through history and significantly more important that I am not qualified or experienced enough to diagnose it and neither are you. Let me be clear, you're not proposing a hypothesis to be explored from the perspective of a different field you're attempting to make a diagnoses without understating how diagnoses are made in the explicit context of mental illness- which astoundingly, I, with nothing more than a high school education, am more experienced. There are specific criteria to be met- to oversimplify, the behavior needs to be some combination of Deviant, Distressing, Dysfunctional, and or Dangerous. For a more precise understanding of a diagnoses you should look into he DSMV and a five axis diagnose. My point here is that I actually have an understanding- more than you with your anthropology degree- of how to make a diagnoses of mental illness and I still have the basic good sense not to attempt that because I am not a
@Chillin on Altis, licensed professional. Similar base knowledge does not cut it when you're attempting to make a diagnoses- please don't masquerade as someone proposing an idea when you're quite likely simply attempting to belittle others. If you were proposing an idea perhaps you would have done the most basic research as to what constitutes a mental illness, you know, something on the level of a highschool psychology class. It's not that difficult, you have internet access.
@Silver6456, just to be clear please see my responses to myself as the block of text allowed was not enough to rebuke you.
@Chillin on Altis, there's still an issue in your logic with the engineer example in the way that they agreed that it's a non issue so they don't pursue it any further. Every issue, even if it has been considered "solved" still needs to be tested as new research is published. It's academically lazy for a topic to be left alone once a majority agrees, it completely stunts growth in the field. You also seem to think that my declaration of mental illness is malicious because YOU take it as malicious. I propose it in order for them to get help. They have a higher risk of suicide and social rejection because of what they identify as. You're putting your own preconceived notions onto my statement to warp it into something else. Also hate to break it to you, but taking one AP class that covers a semester of college material in a year really doesn't teach you that much. Hell, I took AP psych back in high school too. It was a joke
@Silver6456, you don't have authority as you are attempting to declare a diagnoses you simply categorically do not have that authority as you are not in the correct field to make such a diagnoses.
@Chillin on Altis, I read it and you're still unable to remove your own thoughts and feelings from the matter. It's also very condescending on your part to assume that I have no knowledge of mental illness or how it is treated. I've put a ton of research into the issue, which is why I made my statement. I didn't put my initial qualifications into it because I didn't feel a need. You're only in high school, of course you have some basic knowledge but you still are clearly in the early stages of critical thought and analysis. You erroneously think I'm being a bully when I'm just trying to propose a different consideration on the topic. You say to rely on facts and science as if they are absolute. So was shock treatment and lobotomies for the mentally retarded perfectly fine? After all, the science was there to prove that it was totally fine and even helpful. Point being, we aren't in some golden age where science is perfect. There is a duty to question everything
@Silver6456, I don't think that science isn't touchable by politics but it's poor reasoning to use that to disregard information that doesn't fit with your view of things- all that is is confirmation bias on your part. Further, you're doing more than recognizing an issue here, you're circumventing an itemized process to diagnose something. If you are under the impression that a diagnoses happens just because they're pretty sure something looks like an illness, it's simply not the case. There is a specific and complex process and list of requirements to be filled that are widely agreed upon for a diagnoses, and further, the actual psychologists are not only familiar with it(again, seriously stop embarrassing yourself look up the DSM) but they are experienced with its nuances and fine details. I have a general doctor who I visit twice a year, and they have a degree in the medical field, however they will send me to a dermatologist or a optometrist if they suspect an issue- not diagnose m
@Chillin on Altis, me themselves. It's honestly silly for you to suggest you can recognize something like this because it shows you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how mental illnesses are classified.
@Silver6456, what, you're trying to give these people help in the comments section of a meme app? Don't be ridiculous that's honestly laughable. If you wanted to help people you would raise these concerns amongst the scientific community. Further, your point about leaving something alone is also flawed because in this context there isn't more research to do- higher rates of suicide aren't the result of being transgender they're the result of social interactions while transgender. There's something to test with controls. And a simple psychology class puts me with (astoundingly) a better understanding of how mental illnesses are classified than you, which should honestly make you take a look at yourself. Literally spend 30 minutes researching the DSM and you will realize your whole point is functionally invalid- each time you rebuke it's nullified by your clear misunderstand of how mental disorders are classified.
@Silver6456, I am making the deduction that you have no knowledge of mental illness because your declaration is in its essence contradicted by the method of classifying mental illness.
@Silver6456, you do make a good point about questioning everything. However that doesn't mean that your questioning are always right and you should do it in an educated fashion. You went from another field to a mathematician and said "have you tried adding the letter "A" to the number 2 to solve the expression?". You in your declaration completely circumvented the constraints of mental illness definition which is where I draw my primary issue.
If only I could manipulate attractive women the way that the SJW crowd manipulates the public over gender. "Why, I'd identify as the most
f-tuckable man alive." I would demand all the women call me so. Even the fatties to make them feel warranted. Of course I'd only use that manipulation in order to guilt the really attractive females to sleep with me.
@Professor Xavier, Don't you know there's no SJW-acceptable way for a man to be anything other than friendzoned? Men are all misogynistic pigs unless completely subservient to women, so SJW men aren't able to get their fun zones touched the way they want.
@HiroAntagonist, it's always funny how opposed to using sex to sell things they are, but go out of their way to say things like "a guy that's a feminist is really hot" and @i'd date a guy that was a self confessed feminist."
My mom somehow was a boy scout in the 80's
@Redtiger, I am fairly sure (but not certain) that including girls in the Boy Scouts was still being argued in court up until this decade. I wonder if your mom was affiliated with a troop that was unofficial, let her participate without proper membership (lying on paperwork, not enrolling her, false name/identity, faking something, etc.), or something else like that. I don't mean to joke, but maybe your mother is transgender? I grew up knowing a family with the father who was born female (full transition to male, we didn't know until I was in HS, then we didn't really care) and it was an otherwise normal nuclear family of 4.
I would genuinely like to know the details if you would care to elaborate.
Actually, my mom was a boy scout. Cause she had diabetes and they made all the kids with disabilities join boyscouts instead even if they were a girl in her district. Idk why tho :)
"I want to be a real boy"
Darn it, Im a mechanical boy