“But it’s never 𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 been tried.”
@Cave Dweller, "it'll be different if I'M the one who has power and control over everyone else"
Elon Musk is awesome, quirks and all
Now if he could say something dumb again to make the price of his stock drop for a day or 2 so I could get more at a lower price that would be great!
@G1ngerB0y, oh, he will, don’t worry, he will.
...And jet fuel can melt steel beams
@Atomicking74, no but it can burn hot enough to turn steel into play doh. Both are equally bad for the structural integrity of a skyscraper
@Atomicking74, wait a minute...
@Toxia, there we go, finally someone gets it.
It doesn't have to melt it, it just destroy the heat treatment
@Toxia, that’s what melt means. Doesn’t have to totally become liquid to count as melted.
Structural integrity is lost once the molecules start falling out of alignment and that happens at the beginning of the melting process.
@I Are Lebo, structural integrity can be significantly decreased Long before melting point. Softening and melting are different things. Does a slightly soft chocolate bar take the shape of the container it's in? No. But you could force it into some other shape. Does PBT have about ½ of it's maximum tensile strength at ~100° C but melts at about 230? Yup. Structural steel has about 40% of it's strength (at 20°C) at ~550°C but doesn't melt before 1130°C.
Melting is losing all structural integrity. Same mechanism that makes materials weaker, just a very different point on the scale.
Whoa, whoa, whoa...
*nervously* What were you listening TO?
Government has failed everytime it was tried
The communists are your enemy. Not the oligarch class in your own country that has been exploiting, propagandizing, deceiving, oppressing, and robbing you every moment of your life since you were born. It’s the communists.
@DogStew, you know that both can be a problem, right? You’re absolutely right about the rotten core of elites that leach off the current economic system, but if you think communism will be better you’ve got a lot of growing up to do.
Utopian ideal systems don’t work because they require the participants to behave in an ideal manner all the time. They cannot accommodate bad actors. There’s a reason command economies fail every single time.
You need to disabuse yourself of the idea that humanity is naturally good. Humanity is fundamentally selfish and self-serving and whatever system we organize under must take this into account or it will fail.
@DogStew, a failed economic model is not an improvement to a corrupt one.
@Hot Coffee, the only people afraid of communism are the rich and the people that believe the lies of the rich. What do you think the Cold War was about? You are worrying about “what if” scenarios that are never going to happen. Reagan died; you can’t vote for him anymore.
@I Are Lebo, did I say capitalism should be replaced with communism? No! I did not. People shouldn’t be wasting their time chasing a communist shadow. Thank for acknowledging the system is corrupt.
@DogStew, No one is afraid of communism. It just doesn’t work. It’s a wonderful ideal, but people get in the way of functional communism.
I don’t know what “what if” scenarios you’re referring to.
The Cold War was about a lot of things, you can’t summarize it in a sentence and cover all of it.
I’m not sure why you’re talking about a president from 40 years ago.
@Hot Coffee, “what if” communism took over. What would happen to the rich?
@I Are Lebo, when Capitalism failed in Amercia in the 1930s, they were given a chance to rebuild and refine their political idealogy's shortcomings, I don't believe communism has ever been given the chance to be refined in a country with the resources to do so, this is because greedy, american capitalism and its idealogy actively seeks to annihilate communism, both openly and behind closed curtains.
I don't know if this trend is apparent to others, but I find many Americans on this app firmly advocate against communism, and firmly for whatever political system America has. Are yall seriously that engrained in your society that you cannot believe a different society's political system can work?
@DogStew, they would leave and take their wealth with them.
@Hot Coffee, the rich would flee in fear. The ones that couldn’t get away would be jailed, and their riches stripped away.
@DogStew, so you want being rich to be illegal? Why would you jail them when you’re stealing all their wealth? Where is the cutoff for “rich”? Anyone above the poverty line?
@Factory BOY, it really depends on what your society want to accomplish. Lots of systems work, most of history is defined by kingdoms and some sort of noble/peasant class caste system. Russia is basically a capitalist dictatorship. China is basically a fascist oligarchy (though Xi Jinping is working hard to make it a dictatorship). But do you really want to live in China?
@Hot Coffee, no, I do not want to live in China. However, I have also been in Amercia for a few months, and from the personalities that come out of Hollywood scripts, to ideals of saving dogs from China whilst keeping pigs (who are more intelligent than dogs) in mass torture houses until death without ever even realising the hypocrisy. My country, South Africa, faces sanctions from Amercia should we refuse to import their chicken (despite it not reaching our health standards).
@Hot Coffee, American government is as cancerous, as invasive, but a lot more idiotic, than the Chinese. The only difference is Americans try to exploit mostly foreigners, therefore it can be hidden, and so be far more fvcked up.
I'd rather die a protester in Hong Kong than be a fat American that believes, in their ignorance, that the government of America is not a terrosist organisation, and acceptance of US politics is equal to wearing a Hijab because your terrorist father and husband would beat you otherwise. The only difference is Americans are not in a powerless position.
@DogStew, Both can be our enemy. Communists and oppressors.
And capitalism has??? 😅
@Chifilo, capitalism does have its problems, but it has brought more people out of poverty than any other political system. There is a reason why most governments turned to capitalism in the last few hundred years.
China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba
@DogStew, I guess it's all up to the interpretation of what failure is. Committing a mass regicide against your population, in my opinion, makes you a failure. Especially if the only thing that makes your economy work, is evil capitalism subsidising your rule.
ps. it was late when I posted this, I got the word regicide mixed up with democide.
@DogStew, NoT TRuE CoMmUNisM!
@DogStew, are those really communism, or are they socialist dictatorships?
@Your Waifu, Whaaaaaaaats the difference?
@JewishXenu, well, one is communism, and the other is a different type of government wearing a communism costume.
@JewishXenu, the true theory of communism is that after the revolution the government only exists to build the communist economy. Once that is done it is supposed to dissolve. But thats impossible because humans are sooner greedy than selfless.
@Your Waifu, it's funny how they all seem to end up as dictatorships
@JewishXenu, well, when there's a power vacuum, someone will always take control, and it's a lot easier for people to accept a single seemingly charismatic leader on short notice than for them to take the time to think about how to restructure the government.
@Your Waifu, ironically, they’re all fascist states, none are functionally communist.
@Hot Coffee, my point exactly.
@That one lurker, Capitalism is just committing mass regicide against everyone else
Democide works too, I guess
@Factory BOY, no, you're thinking of liberalism. I updated my post, correcting my mistake. If you want to say capitalism is performing a democide, the word I originally intended, then go ahead and make your case.
I'm more then certain you're just saying this cause you're emotionally involved with the fantasy. Like a fan boy meeting his star, finally realizing that he's just an actor. Being a comi is a phase most kids get through once they get their clothes dirty.
@JewishXenu, socialist dictator states are usually functionally strongly regulated capitalist economies where as communism has no economy: people voluntarily restrict themselves to what they need and give away everything extra they make. (That’s why communism is such a dominant power in the world today)
Hope that clears things up.
@DogStew, China is a communist hellhole where COVID victims gets nailed into their houses to die and Uighur Muslims are actively being genocided.
North Korea is a hellhole where the populace is dirt poor and brainwashed to idolize their leadership as gods while they starve and he grows fat.
Vietnam is such a hellhole that millions of people regularly flee their borders to escape.
I admit I don’t know anything about Laos, and Cuba is too complicated to go over and I’ve ranted enough lately.
The point is Communism is shït and only ignorant people or morons support it.
@I grade all memes, but how can a redistribution of wealth occur without a government?
I'm a capitalist, an objectivist, a libertarian. Voluntarism is a must and initiation of force is wrong from any entity in my philosophy. So I'm opposed to communism since it enslaves parts of a population to the other with no way to abstain from such a system without it's collapse. The skilled, productive, and talented are chained not just to the weak and helpless but to the lazy and inept too. I don't see how such a system could operate independent of a government and more specifically someone holding a gun to make sure those people don't stop working or leave. The skilled and talented would inevitably grow bitter towards a society that takes more than gives and leave the country. That leads the country to dwindle into a poverty stricken starving country. It's inevitable imo. That's why communist countries become dictatorships. One must force people to stay and work within communism or it fails.
@Your Waifu, why did you repeat yourself? Communism requires dictatorship and: It. Always. Fails.
@NotCaveJohnson, I was in Israel last year, and one of the major stops on the trip was a commune. One of our group members was also born in a commune, and through him and the guides we as a group learned about a dozen different Israeli communes.
Every single one of them collapsed after no more than a generation because pretty much all of the kids of the people who’d formed the commune got sick of busting their asses all day while other people did nothing and so they left, and without them the commune couldn’t sustain itself.
Communism could MAYBE work if all labour was automated, but even then there are too many problems with the power structures necessary to maintain control.
@big freedom, the only two scenarios I can think of where a communist economy even has a chance of succeeding would be is if it wasn’t being run by humanity. If God himself came down from the heavens to rule the world under a no government system where he enforced his will with his army of angels, then MAYBE things wouldn’t immediately go to shït. I doubt it.
The alternative is if the robot overlords take over, automating all labour and keeping humans alive for whatever reason. Maybe as pets.
@NotCaveJohnson, I never said communism made sense
@big freedom, I didn't repeat myself, and true communism as described by the ones who came up with it doesn't have any leaders or classes, which thus means that no dictatorship can be truly communist. Communism is an impossible ideal that is both unrealistic and dangerous to strive for, and the lack of a leader is exactly why so many countries that go for it tend to end up as socialist dictatorships, as mentioned when I talked about power vacuums.
@DogStew, China and Laos both went under Free market reforms in the 1970s, 1980s. North Korea is constantly starving and a terrible place to live. Cuba is decades behind technologically, and Vietnam is pretty awful.
For further details, compared North Korea at night, to South Korea at night. Communism has always failed, and Socialism only works if funded by capitalism.
@Hot Coffee, Amazing. Every last word you just said was wrong. Not a single communist country has a strong economy.
This is due to quite a few factors. Communism completely rejects capitalism. Most people think (incorrectly) that places like China are communist, when they went under a free market reform nearly 50 years ago at this point.
Free market is synonymous to capitalism btw. Cheers on your lack of a brain cell thou.
@I Are Lebo, have you been to any of those places? Have you been to any communist country? Have you ever spoken to anyone who has had first hand experience in a communist country? Where are you getting your information?
@ Michishige Shou, do you know any of that first hand? Have you ever visited a communist country? Have you met anyone with first hand experience? Where do you get your information?
@ Michishige Shou, wut? You didn’t read my comment or you’re responding to someone else.
I both agree with everything you said and already knew what you said.
I’m worried about your reading comprehension.
@DogStew, I work with an number of people who grew up in the Soviet Union. Without exception, the hate communism.
@ Michishige Shou, China does not have free market. They have government control over entire market.
@That one lurker, What's wrong with you? I'm not a communist, I simply understand there are various formations of states and how they are run, and that no single system is the correct answer for every society and culture. The fact that you presumed my political stance out of my challenging capitalism, and then presume your older and wiser without sufficient context, well, that probably means you're a presumptuous asshole.
@Factory BOY, you stated an opposition claim without understanding what the opposite of claim was, just cause it had the word cide at the end of it. My initial claim was against communism rampant history of murdering its populace to complete its goals, "democide", so I'll admit that I made some assumptions when you used the, "no u" argument.
By reading other threads on the post I'm glad to say I peged you right.
Then again, what do you call a person who walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and defends the oppressive regime of the Chinese Communist Party?
@That one lurker, I didn't defend the Chinese, said I would die protesting against that government before becoming American. Communism works on paper, not in reality, because of people in power eventually committing atrocities for power. Capatalism gives favour to people in power willing to commit the worst atrocities.
The fact that I can defend communism and not be a communist did not occur to you, with your choose a political side mentality, rather than finding your place on the spectrums of political idealogies.
I also don't appreciate your inability to view a differing opinion and debate it without trying to demean the other human being, asshole
@Factory BOY, ok, I did miss read the post, I didn't think about the idea that you didn't have knowledge about what has happened in Hong Kong. Their government has relinquished power, China has steped in, their are "no more riots" going on against das party.
I all so didn't conceive of the irony, how you trash talked America and then said you'd protest to become America.
So that's my bad.
Just like with that, I assume you have the same knowledge as me.
With how both you and dogstew argue on the behalf of communism, I'd assume you both stoped your studies before the gulags were discovered. If I said half the same things about other Marxist ideologies I'd more then likely get banned.
So please, tell me about how capitalism has created worse atrocities then, the atrocities committed in the USSR, the Great Leap Forward, or the current uyghur Muslim genocide in China.
@That one lurker, Every foreign war Americans have and are engaged in, they do this to protect their interests at the cost of foreign human lives, killing and bombing Middle easterns for oil and politcs (behind idealogy) like Nazis mass-killed for their idealogy. I mentioned in another post, just as an example of the American government's moral attitude towards trade allies, South Africa has to import American chicken that does not meet our health standards, or face sanctions from the States.
And btw, if an American air strike ever kills my loved ones, I am flying planes into your biggest buildings full of people, cause that's figting back, and yall constantly bombing civilians like women and children to protect the interest of your petrol prices, like you don't understand loss of life unless it's on your soil
@That one lurker,
I can bring up many atrocities committed by Capitalist nations as well, should we therefore discard capitalism like you want to communism for their atrocities?
I trashed talked America, then said I'd die protesting in Hongkong before becoming American, not for your American ideals, that was your input, and I'm tired of you misreading my words because particular arguments of yours are not relevant as a result
@Factory BOY, " every foreign war Americans have and are engaged in." You have no idea about the history of this place, or how to proof read. So, the Barbary wars, was a war based on ideology, is Americans bad cause of that?
Also, are you talking about the chlorine chicken debacle? I'm pretty sure South Africa has more health standards concern then chickens, specifically around some Polish-African farmers.
The next have of this post is either black propaganda or you need help. If anything you're demanding escalation to a scale you do not comprehend.
Lastly, it does matter, because Hong Kong is fighting against a fascist dictatorship, and what is there symbol of Freedom, America. Those protesters are more American than 8% of the u.s. population. I'd Happily ten for one for them, cause they both deserve what they're asking for.
@That one lurker, Unlike yo Westernised -born and die with power and priveledge- ass, my white-ass (you presumptuous fvck) has actually studied American history and spent time there. SA has extremely good produce compared to the plastic apples of America, so don't mention some random polish attatchment to defend American abuse of power.
Pretty sure? South African food quality is better than American.
America is the symbol of freedom in Hong Kong? Or you jus cannot believe that America is not free? Either way that's just wrong.
Americans are free in their beliefs because of what the government imposes on other nations, meaning you defending state-level gangsterism because you benefit from it.
@That one lurker, Are you saying because SA has other health issues Americans can walk over us?
You are not willing to debate with me as someone whose context you cannot know. You projecting people you've come across and their ideas onto me, and assuming therefore, that you know something about me, but you got it wrong every time. Stop assuming your smarter because you disagree, and stop thinking you know more about me than the words I said, cause you clearly don't, your jus being defensive
@Factory BOY, I didn't say nothing about your race. I was talking about the genocide of white farmers in South African.
You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Hong Kong.
And yes I do say you do not know American history, if you can say
"Every foreign war Americans have and are engaged in"
With out engaging with the first example off the top of my head.
You're clearly a malicious actor, for stealth editing your posts after the fact. You need to separate your post, and place disclaimers for added content.
Lastly, is it apart of your methodology that you could be wrong?
I ask in a combination between my last two points.
"capitalism is just committing a mass regicide against everyone else"
I make my comment.
Added text "democide works too, I guess"
A regicide and democide occurring at the same time is just considered a genocide. What you then reiterated over the last few posts. Blaming capitalism for all of the problems, and America by proxy.
@Hot Coffee, Shou's reading comprehension and critical thinking skills are truly and utterly fvcked. Either that or they are a Really committed troll. Still not sure which. Leaning more towards the former though.
@Factory BOY, “communism works on paper” if you can completely ignore human nature. I mean other than ignoring 50% of the concept, I’m sure it looks great on paper.
@Your Waifu, 1. Any society without leaders or classes must, by definition, be an anarchy. A communist anarchy lasts as long as no tyrants seize the power vacuum, and no longer.
2. Any society with an economy must, by definition, have classes. There’s no alternative, because not everyone is capable of filling every role in society. Not everyone is going to be a farmer, or manufacturer, or engineer, or doctor, or whatever other role is needed to be filled. The only way for there to be no leaders and no classes is for everyone to be a dirt poor peasant with no possessions and no prospects.
And wouldn’t you know it, every time communism has been attempted, it’s resulted in a lot of dirt poor peasants with no possessions or prospects.
If ‘true communism’ is a self contradicting system, then it can never BE attempted, because the attempt itself keeps it from being ‘true’, which makes that qualifier meaningless.
@DogStew, from a multitude of sources, including but not limited to: history classes throughout my school career, lessons from my history teacher father whose study is dedicated to the early 20th century (specifically WW2, including the rise and fall of Lenin and Stalin), first hand reports from family members and extended family members/friends of family, some of whom survived the ghettos themselves, independent study of history as background for a historical novel I failed to get published, and a sister-in-law whose Russian family has passed down stories to her and I’ve heard them third hand.
If your response to “x place has y quality” is to ask if I’ve been there, you reveal how simplistic your thinking is that you seem to think only first hand experience can convey knowledge.
@I Are Lebo, which is exactly my point, because the communist ideal as outlined in the writings of the ideology's creator Karl Marx and of its practitioners is a society where everyone has exactly equal rights and political power and where wealth is distributed exactly evenly. And as you just outlined, there's a boatload of reasons why that simply doesn't work, the primary one being that without some form of higher authority there can be no real regulation and as such it simply isn't possible for there to be a true government, thus why I said communism really only works as an ideal and is dangerous to actually strive for. The prime example of course being when Marxists spurred on a revolution to overthrow Russia's government and the resulting power vacuum allowed Stalin to take over and form the USSR.
@Your Waifu, the only way I can realistically see communism being implemented successfully would have to be after the singularity. If robots become more advanced than humans and get integrated into society at all levels, then we could end up with a society where all production and manufacturing is automated, currency and jobs become obsolete, and the resources generated are evenly distributed throughout the populace. At that point there would still be leaders and classes, because if nothing else people would still be creating art or other hobbies/pursuits, and in all likelihood the new primary currency would just be attention. Likes. Content creators would still be on a tier above content consumers, and that’s never going to change. Leaders and followers are integral parts of humanity.
In practice with real humans, though, the only system less well thought through than communism is anarchy, and for much the same reasons.
@I Are Lebo, I don't see that ever occurring in that exact way without AI being the ones in charge, and even that wouldn't truly be it either because by that point AI will be advanced enough to be indistinguishable from a person. I also doubt the general public of any capitalist country would ever agree to such a system. The other thing people miss about the idea of the singularity is that for AI to become smarter than people we'd need to not only be able to make an AI that can think like a human, but also be able to create one that's capable of learning and using information better than a human is, which becomes problematic to do when you consider the subjective nature of morality. If an AI that smart ever did exist, and it was put in a leading position, the most likely outcome would be a dystopia from the AI either misinterpreting it's prime directives or outright denying them due to thinking like a person and therefore having free will.
@I Are Lebo, so which source correlates to which “shltty hellhole” country?
Maybe in 2021...
My butt stinks
True communism has never been tried