As a Catholic, this hurts, but he’s not super far off from being right. That’s not to say a vast majority of priests aren’t decent people giving of themselves to shepherd God’s people. As much as the Church has messed up, my response is always what Peter remarked to Jesus upon seeing the crowds fleeing for His hard-to-swallow teachings...“Where else shall we go, you have the words of eternal life.”
@HammerOfHeretics, my priest definitely taught me things that were hard to swallow
@HammerOfHeretics, I’ve always said if to do a job you have to give up sex your hiring pool is largely gonna be the people who’s sexual preference is shunned so it doesn’t seem like a big sacrifice.
@HammerOfHeretics, it’s probably still the majority of priests that are good people but idk if I’d say it’s the vast majority... in fact I wouldn’t. There are a ton of stories of people getting molested by them, like way WAAY too many and it’s often times backed up by cold hard facts but if we’re seeing a ton of them coming to light, then you know there are even more that didn’t get caught because the people are ashamed or afraid to tell anyone.
@HammerOfHeretics, one thing I know is, being catholic made me hate religion on a whole, two I'm certain there are more pedophiles and molester a part of the church , he'll it basically breeds them
@HammerOfHeretics, thank you for providing a Catholic perspective on this, it is much appreciated
@HammerOfHeretics, the problem with the Catholic Church isn’t just about priests molesting or raping children and/or nuns. The clergy protects these offenders and moves them around without telling anyone their crimes, allowing them to commit them again and again. On top of that, the Catholic Church is guilty of widespread economic crimes, from tax crimes to fraud.
The Catholic Church is a criminal organization pretending to be a virtuous institution.
@BigJohnson86, well thats a huge assumption.
@HammerOfHeretics, I'm just glad to see Pope Francis take action. Even though it's very slight. And very slow. It's better than nothing. I know that a majority of priests are great men, but I have a problem with the fact that the few who are scumbags get protected by everyone one above them in the hierarchy. Those guys are almost as bad.
@I Are Lebo, as a catholic, i agree that they have done bad things but we must all remember a small percentage of a population does not reflect that entire population. The church definitely needs to do more with regards to crimes within their own ranks. I am not sure about the tax thing though, havent heard of it.
@Implicit88, the problem is it isn’t a small minority. The organization as a whole protects priests who rape and molest children and interferes with them being brought to justice for their crimes.
It’s like with Harvey Weinstein. If the people around him weren’t complicit in looking the other way, he wouldn’t have been able to abuse nearly as many people without facing justice. Only with the church the problem is much worse, because there are multitudes of abusers and a system specifically set up to protect them instead of protecting the children.
As to the economic crimes, that’s more complicated, but the closed book nature of church financing allows many churches to cook the books. In addition, the tax exemption and even tax based benefits churches receive is both unearned and undeserved, considering the amount of money drawn in by donations and collections and considering the total lack of accountability within the organization.
@I Are Lebo, i agree there is that protection issue all i meant was not all priest are pedos. Church needs to boot these people and report them to law enforcement. Real reason they dont do it is because of the scandals that would occur if everything became public knowledge.
@Implicit88, no, that’s not accurate. If the Catholic Church handed all of its child diddling priests over to law enforcement, they’d be celebrated for it.
The real reason why they don’t do it is unclear to me, but if I had to hazard a guess, I’d say it’s because the cardinals don’t think it’s immoral to molest the children in your care.
The scandals have already happened. When the spotlight team exposed them in the 80s, it became public knowledge and changed nothing. The clergy have intentionally flouted local and federal law because they don’t respect the law of man and the law of God doesn’t tell them they can’t rape children.
@BigJohnson86, Also, after decades of being told that even scratching your nuts with a little too much enthusiasm gets you in to hell, touching the choir boys probably doesn’t seem any more sinful than jacking off.
@Implicit88, And also because the priests probably admit to it in confession, which the church regards as sacrosanct and so it feels impelled to protect them - doing otherwise would suggest that confession is not inviolable, which would basically be heresy.
@I Are Lebo, The priests probably admit it during Confession. The Church holds Confession to be sacrosanct and inviolable - so they either protect the priest (and the sacrament of Confession) or they violate the sacrament and essentially commit heresy.
I firmly believe that criminal acts should be exempt from Confessional secrecy, but you see the position they’re in? They’d be excommunicated for breaking the secrecy and risk a schism in the Church, which isn’t something most Priests want to cause, if they followed the laws of men over (in their views) the laws of God.
Perhaps a compromise? Don’t tell anyone, just stone the perverts to death?
@Implicit88, not really. It’s more of a huge assdestruction
@I Are Lebo, yup, I’m by choice a member of an organization whose sole purpose is the molestation of children and perpetration of evil throughout the world. Glad I can finally say that. Not like in any enormous organization (religious or otherwise), you have to expect bad apples. I’m not making excuses since a religious institution and the successors of Christ should do a much MUCH better job, but they are human and flawed so it’s not a huge surprise. But it’s all good. The church has failed miserably before, but unlike other organizations, it’s stood for 2000 years and isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. We’ll figure this out too.
@HammerOfHeretics, now you’re just being dishonest. I never claimed that the abuses against children are the purpose of the Catholic Church. No, the purpose of the Catholic Church is power and control.
Your argument about bad apples is fallacious. It’s not the bad apples that are the primary problem, it’s the rest of them that protect the bad apples instead of protecting the children.
There is no organization still around today that has done as much harm as the Catholic Church. The systematic oppression of gay people, the abuses against other religions, the manipulation of society to serve their own needs via such institutions as religious dogma based schooling and legislative interference. The fact that they’ve been around a long time means nothing.
You are making excuses. Bad excuses. The immoral actions of other organizations have no bearing whatsoever on the misdeeds of the CC.
If the Catholic Church was to be disbanded, the world would be better for it.
@I Are Lebo, Sorry. That’s what I meant to become a member of. Cause I exercise so much power and control...it’s totally worth it. Nah the fact its been around as long as it has (it has outlived every major empire in the world), holding onto truth even through the depravity of her authorities, changing no doctrine and becoming the basis for the developed western world, isn’t nothing, it’s a sign of its true mission on Earth. To act as God’s instrument on Earth and to lead all generations to Christ. And of course it doesn’t do it perfectly for it is a human institution. But it does so with divine guidance and protection for it is also a divine institution.
@HammerOfHeretics, if you’re going to continue being dishonest and taking criticism for Catholicism and the Catholic Church as criticism of you personally or Catholics in general, then this conversation is going to be entirely pointless.
The age of a proposition or claim has no bearing whatsoever on its accuracy. There is no truth to Catholicism until such time as the truth has been demonstrated.
As to the doctrine of Catholicism not changing, that’s straight up false. Catholicism has changed its view on everything from slavery to gay rights.
As for the basis of the developed western world, that’s a half truth. Judeo-Christian morals are not the domain of the Catholic Church and so credit for that does not belong to Catholicism any more than any other specific sect.
There is no divine guidance to an organization that supported both the Nazis and the KKK. To “act as God’s instrument” is a meaningless statement applied to everything from charity work to genocide.
The Church is evil.
That doesn’t mean everyone in the church is.
@I Are Lebo, you seem to not mean that “doctrine” has a very specific meaning. In matters of doctrine, which if you’re going to try to fine evidence against, you’re gonna need to find specific doctrinal issues where teaching has been changed. You forget that the church was one of the first and most consistently against slavery in America. If you’re calling the church evil, you are also calling her teachings evil, and in turn you are also saying that those who adhere to her teachings are similarly evil. So yes it is a personal attack. But tbh I’m done arguing with you on literally every post. You love picking fights for some reason.
@HammerOfHeretics, you are so massively dishonest that I suspect you aren’t doing it intentionally.
The organization is evil because it, as standard operating procedure, takes money from the societies it operates in (via tax exemption and tax breaks), subverts the law of the land, and supports demonstrably immoral positions while protecting criminals.
Criticizing the institution is not criticizing every single thing the institution stands for or has stood for, nor is it criticizing every member of the institution.
As for the church being the first to oppose slavery in the USA, that’s complete horseshït. There were Catholics on both sides of that issue, and the ones on the Confederacy were the honest ones, because your Bible endorses slavery as being good and moral and does not ever denounce or condemn the practice of owning other humans as property. Check your facts on that, because that’s a claim not based on reality.
The Church is evil because the church does evil things. Not
everything the Church does is evil, and not everyone in the Church participates in the evil that the Church does.
If you want to take fair criticism of an organization as an attack on you, you’re free to do so. But it shows how arrogant you are that you think it’s about you. It’s not.
It’s about men with power using it to abuse other people and the society around them. It’s about an ideology that preaches ignorance, and condemns critical thinking and self valuation with submitting yourself to a fictitious omnipotent psychopath that delights in torment and sadism while claiming to be the source of goodness and morality.
The God of your Bible is as evil as your religious institution. That only makes you evil if you both recognize that FACT and embrace it. Otherwise you aren’t evil, merely misguided.
@I Are Lebo, I’m perfectly well guided, if bad at obeying. I pray you find similar guidance. God bless you. Truly. He loves you, you’ll figure that out one day, hopefully. You just have to ask humbly and sincerely.
@HammerOfHeretics, again with the dishonesty. Your god is a piece of garbage, and if he loved me he would never consider torturing me for eternity.
Let go of your indoctrination, and open your eyes. You are in a cult.
@I Are Lebo, hell is your choice. To be completely separated from him is entirely your call. Not his lol but he’ll respect it. Or then again, his mercy might outweigh letting you pick your fate since you’re so grossly misinformed. And with darkness in your heart.
@HammerOfHeretics, I am glad a lot is being done to prevent these atrocities. I look forward to the Pope’s call for change. It is not okay and it is not something we support.
@HammerOfHeretics, are you aware of how dishonest you are being? Hell is not the separation from God, it is never ending torment of the worst form possible. Hell is not your choice when the alternative option is to accept a claim of authority without proof and serve blindly a being that thinks it morally correct to punish someone for being raped by being forcibly married to their rapist.
Catholicism is responsible for multiple atrocities, and you accept it as truth because you have been indoctrinated to. Does it matter to you whether what you believe is true?
This is why during the entire conversation, I’ve been speaking to you, and you have responded at me. You have come at this dishonestly again and again. A thorough examination of the Catholic Church shows it has done substantially more harm than good, and that they continue to do so. An objective examination of the teachings of Catholicism have a number of morally good and wise ideals, as well as a plethora of ignorance and hate.
@madeyoulook2, what is being done to stop it? Denouncement from the pope means nothing if the cardinals continue to shelter the criminals within the clergy.
@HammerOfHeretics, to clarify my position on the actual claims of Catholicism, because my original point was about the earthly organization, not the ‘divine message’.
The divine message is nonsense. The very base premise of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is ridiculous. Humans are flawed because God made us that way, and because of that flaw are deserving of damnation because that’s how God made the universe. In order to forgive of us our flaw, God manifested Himeslf in human form and set loose a sequence of events that ended with His crucifixion, serving as a final blood sacrifice in a long bloody history of death and massacre and all sorts of abhorrent behaviour, especially towards young women, and that this Ultimate Sacrifice will absolve mankind of their sin.
This is absurd from the get go, and the fundamentals are insane. I’m not being hyperbolic, it’s mentally ill to think that the default point for humanity is “deserving of eternal torment”. That’s sociopathic.
@HammerOfHeretics, I have no good reason to accept anything in the bible as true, and were I to be presented with a good reason for that, would still have no reason to accept that this God is good.
@I Are Lebo, lol you’re on a roll man. Keep at it. A few more nonsense paragraphs and you’ll bring the Church down!
@HammerOfHeretics, it has nothing to do with bringing down the church. It has to do with you and people like you making ridiculous claims without evidence or rational justification. But that’s irrelevant to you, because truth is whatever you consider it to be.
You do you, you dishonest Catholic, you.
@I Are Lebo, why wouldn’t you want to bring down such an evil organization?! Where’s your altruism?!
@HammerOfHeretics, the freedom to be wrong is an essential part of what it actually means to be free. This world would be better off without religion, but it can only get to that point voluntarily. The only way the Catholic Church gets brought down is dissolution from the inside.
That’s not going to happen, because indoctrination is the key to the success of Catholicism. They have a designed pathway through the human mind, using a long perfected bag of tricks including but not limited to guilt, shame, the feelings of joy and enervation that comes from the environment they cultivate, and stories of fantasy that affirm special privilege and status to true believers.
You are so entrenched in your position that nothing I could ever say to you could ever sway you, and I am not attempting to sway you. I am merely pointing out the flaws in the organization, the flaws in the religious ideology, and the flaws in your reasoning. You haven’t addressed a single point I’ve made on here.
@HammerOfHeretics, In order to get into Heaven you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior. That means you must accept without any doubt that Jesus Christ exists. Some people, myself included, can not accept that something exists without proof. Accept that there is a possibility? Sure, but accept for certain? No. So God chooses to send people to Hell, they don’t make that choice for themselves. They could do only good for their entire lives and even be open to the possibility that Jesus and God exist and yet they would be sent to Hell. Seems like a great guy....
@Blasphemy is Fun, well that requires an honest search of their heart and for the truth to the best that an individual is capable. But there also is a major difference between catholic and Protestant theology. In Catholic thought, while all are saved through Christ, this does not necessarily mean an explicit knowledge and acceptance of him. An implicit knowledge through a sincere search for truth and with your doing good as you know it to the best of your ability without explicit Christian moral teaching may get you a long way. That’s how we view the prospects of all those good, decent non-Christians throughout the world. So your mistaken in that thought process, from a catholic perspective.
@Nellybert , confession is useful but only when you truly believe you did wrong and are regretful for the act and not for being caught. I dont think many priests that molested kids actually think they did wrong.
@I Are Lebo, i think you misunderstood me. I am saying they should have reported priests to law enforcement. The top reason they did not is to attempt to hide the events from the general public.
@Implicit88, I’m not speculating on any actual remorse, just saying that if they admitted it under the sacrament of Confession, then the Church has a choice between keeping the secret or committing heresy.
Personally, I’d suggest that the Bible has plenty of appropriate punishments in it that could be used on pedophile priests....
@Nellybert , they could just have easily changed their doctrine. I doubt any confessions were made prior to public knowledge of these evidence or fear they would be caught.
@Implicit88, The Catholic Church change doctrine? You really see that happening any time soon?
I’d guess they mostly confessed right at the point when they knew they were on the hook - but under Catholic doctrine, as soon as they Confess, the Church has to keep the secret. Since that doctrine is basically the core of their entire lives, they essentially don’t think they have a choice in the matter.
@Implicit88, yeah, which is called obstruction of justice, which is a crime.
They don’t just not report them. They move them away from the parish in which they committed their crime to another parish where absolutely no one is informed of their crimes, allowing them to keep commuting them.
@Nellybert , again, it’s not just about keeping secrets. The clergy abets the crimes of the priests, they aren’t simply complicit.
@I Are Lebo, The whole moving them and hiding it is all part of keeping the secret. It’s not just about protecting the church, it’s a fanatical dedication to keeping Confession inviolate - if the ‘secret’ gets out, Confession was broken and they’ve potentially committed heresy.
I’m not saying this as a justification for doing it, I’m pointing out how deeply rooted the fúcked-up nature of the whole situation is. They’re choosing to protect child abusers because they’re completely incapable of admitting that any part of their doctrine is wrong, which is a whole extra level of screwed up.
@Nellybert , I’m telling you, your logic isn’t sound. Covering it up is keeping the secret. Letting them continue performing their crimes elsewhere risks it getting out.
It’s not just about doctrine. They’re abetting child rape because they actually seriously don’t think it’s immoral.
@I Are Lebo, If they move them and then have them escorted everywhere by a nun who doesn’t let them be alone with the choir-boys, it’ll be pretty obvious why - which would give away the secret, which breaks Confession. It’s about as convoluted and as far from sound as logic can get, but that’s part of how they see it.
Also, once they’ve confessed and received absolution they are - in the Church’s eyes - forgiven and so probably don’t need punishment. Again, it’s messed up logic, and I’m not defending it - simply suggesting why they do it.
My personal solution would involve a specialist pair of scissors and/or a barrage of pointy stones on those involved. But first we’d need to get the Catholic Church to change 2,000 years of doctrine and say that Confession can be broken, and admit Papal fallibility..... yeah.
@Nellybert , or they could just leave them in the church where they committed the crime, forcing them by practicality to stop raping children or be discovered.
There’s a big difference in being complicit in covering up a crime and abetting he criminal to keep committing it.
If I had the power to know the identities and locations of all of the priests actively raping and all of the cardinals helping them do so, I’d wage a one man war and cut a bloody swathe through the church.
If I ever got this power, you’d know it, because priests would begin showing up dead and crucified with their genitals mutilated across the western world.
@I Are Lebo, But letting them be discovered would, by inaction, break Confession - and that would be heresy.
Did you ever read The Stand, by Stephen King? A genetically engineered virus escapes from a military lab in the US, and the Generals react by releasing it globally because - in their eyes - it’s better to cover it up & wipe out mankind, than admit that the US fúcked up. It’s that kind of ‘logic’ we’re dealing with here.
@Nellybert , that type of logic is criminal
@I Are Lebo, Yes, yes it is. The people who cover it up should be charged right alongside the ones doing the diddling.
@HammerOfHeretics, I love how I even explicitly call you out on not addressing a single point that disagrees with your perspective and your reaction is to not address it.
Which makes you a coward in addition to being a liar. Great job being Christ-like.
@Nellybert , I genuinely would advocate for the cardinals and priests who cover up child rape by priests by relocating the offender should be crucified.
Stone to death the raping priests.
@I Are Lebo, Given how long offenders sit on death row for, what do you reckon the chances of a defrocked child abusing Bishop surviving in general population long enough to be executed are?
@I Are Lebo, you can stop picking fights for their own sake man. I’m not entertaining your anti-religious ideology disguised as good faith discussions. I’m over that. As fun as comment thread-based discussions are, they’re too time consuming to undertake especially knowing they’re falling on ears that have been convinced long ago of the evil of any thought outside of a materialistic worldview.
@HammerOfHeretics, you have no idea what my worldview is because you are uninterested. You ascribe intent to others and dismiss them because the truth is not important to you. I have no opposition whatsoever to worldviews that aren’t materialistic, I have opposition to worldviews that are based on superstition and ignorance.
I’m rude to you because of how you handle yourself on issues such as these. Please address any of my actual criticisms of Catholicism.
@Nellybert , the failings of the judicial system when it comes to treatment and processing of death row inmates is its own issue. I object to the way that he USA handles death sentences for a number of different reasons.
Realistically, I was advocating for vigilantism, which I don’t seriously support. If someone actually went around murdering priests, I would condemn such an action, regardless of well informed they thought they were about their victims crimes.
@I Are Lebo, yup, you ascribe all of religion to “superstition and ignorance” on the fact that they’re proof comes mainly not from materialistic or physical evidence but from metaphysical evidence. And there’s no convincing you otherwise.
@HammerOfHeretics, what is metaphysical evidence?
@HammerOfHeretics, and no, for the record, I do not ascribe all of religion to superstition and ignorance. For example, I have nothing whatsoever against Taoism. I also have no issues with Wicca (provided they aren’t evangelical).
@I Are Lebo, rational, philosophical proofs about existence, causality, basically the big “why are we here” questions answered from a philosophical POV and lmaoo great fringe religions. I’m done here man. Get over it. Find a new religious debate partner.
@I Are Lebo, Ah, right, gotcha. I was more musing on the fact that there are probably a lot of people who share that idea, many of whom would not be opposed to carrying it out themselves.
In either case, I think we can agree that knowingly & deliberately sheltering pedophiles - whoever they are - from the law is an act almost as repugnant as the abuse itself.
@HammerOfHeretics, really, right when we actually get to something useful and productive beyond sniping at each other, that’s where you call it?
If you’d actually address the points and have a conversation, I’d be respectful and we could actually manage to do something useful.
@Nellybert , I agree. It’s a problem without a good solution. There’s no way to force the issue without adopting oppressive fascistic tactics against the church, and that would simply replace one problem with another.
@I Are Lebo, Indeed. Not an easy issue to resolve, especially as religion is often such a personal thing to people that many take any negative comment relating to it as a personal attack. Renders conversation ‘difficult’ at times.
@Nellybert , Hammer makes an excellent example of that. I would never criticize an individual Christian for the things their religion promotes, because every Christian has their own ideas of what is right and wrong and of what god is and what god wants from them.
I don’t attack people. I attack ideas. Because defending ideas makes them stronger, if they are good ideas. Bad ideas should be rooted out and destroyed.
That is, if the truth is something one values over dogma.
@I Are Lebo, at our Church, all members working with vulnerable peoples require criminal record checks. All suspected abuse is to be reported to the police 1st as well as to our diocese. We are educated on mandatory reporting procedures before volunteering. Our Priest has had talks on it, how to watch for it and what to do about it. It is not some big secret we pretend does not exist. The same goes for my profession in teaching. Too many perverts choosing the profession but we are doing everything we can do to prevent it but it still occurs especially in poorer countries with different social norms. It is wrong, no Catholic or teacher who is a normal human being is going to say it is okay. I wish I knew what more I could do to stop bad people from doing bad things.
A repost but I’ll give an upvote for Bill Burr
Looks like the southern baptists are going down this path, as well. Just read an article about hundreds of cases of sexual abuse that were either deliberately or negligently mishandled, and the church’s response has basically been that they don’t have the means to hold everyone accountable, nor would they, if they could, because that would compromise the autonomy of the individual churches.
@Berntley, how about the autonomy of children to not get raped? Guess they don’t care about that, huh?
@I Are Lebo, sorry, man. Pastor Rub’n’Stuff says that’s just a really tall order.
@Berntley, what a wonderful god they worship, who can’t even prevent his own followers from abusing the innocent in their care.
Don’t you think you went a little too far with this repost?