The Eye of Jordan
Gandalf’s a Maia, which is essentially a lesser god. He’s not sweating any human
If they each get their magic system then yeah. Harry potter magic is an absolutly broken magic system
@azaraku, Gandalf is the equivalent of an angel, or demigod in LOTR though. He's got thousands of years of experience and plenty of magic power
@Mantis Tobaggan, Plus he's got that White privilege
@Mantis Tobaggan, dumbthedoor wins with unbeatable stick
@Tentastic, he Gandalf win with big stick
@Mantis Tobaggan, but Harry Potter has abracadeath
@Tentastic, Dumbledore doesn't use that spell, no? He's a good boy
@Tentastic, to be honest, even with death spell I think Gandalf has got it, his speed, strength, durability, and endurance are super human in the books and he can counter most spells unless the wizard is more powerful than him (Sarumon while he was still gandalf the gray for example)
That and he can summon lightning, blinding light, fire, and a range of other stuff. Pluse he has martial prowess, he is damn good woth a sword and could use his shields and counter spells to get close and cut Dumbledores head off.
I am much more familiar with LOTR lore so idk if I k it the limits of the death spell, but I do know Dumbledore doesn't use it, I'm sure he knows how to use it though
@Mantis Tobaggan, so I’ve read the lotr but I very far from memorized it. Still, I’m confident G’s shield can push back the death curse. Harry as a kid was fencing against it on several occasions. And yes G’s got his sword. And yes, G is like a demigod or something… but
Im an empirical kinda guy. What did G DO? Some good sword work. D teleports away. Some flashy lights that blind an army. Neat scale of the power but it didn’t burn them away or anything, just set them up to get stabbed. He didn’t die that one time. We’ll I haven’t died either but I’ll admit, his lack of death is more impressive than mine and D couldn’t win that round. So what did he actually do besides shields, light, not die, and an exorcism that one time. It’s not about what fanboys say he COULD do. It’s about what he can do based on evidence. If D was out for blood… he attacks fast and has high maneuverability with teleportation. G’s shield will hold through it most of the time but the elder wand is supposed to be..
@Canis Arktos, …one heck of a weapon.
@Canis Arktos, my wife just chimed into the conversation and says that “As a professor D needs to pass and G would win because he wouldn’t let D pass.”
@Canis Arktos, it's a great weapon but from what I can tell it wouldn't do much against Gandalf. Like I said, I'm not super familiar with Harry Potter but I doubt the wand is an automatic win.
If we got strictly movies D might clinch it, but G is his less powerful form fought the Balrog for days without stopping, and killed it. Then his body died, and he came back stronger. Now, if his body dies against D that's a loss imo, just because he might come back means nothing imo.
That being said, Gandalf can't technically be killed. His body can be but his spirit can't, but I say if the body is killed he loses the fight.
The main complication is that Gandalf is only permitted to use his full power in certain instances, such as against the Balrog as it is not a part of middle earth therefore he is not interfering with middle earth's affairs. It's an interesting match up and D has a greater variety of spells for sure, but I think G is too powerful and has too many ways to counter D
@Mantis Tobaggan, I agree on the power stats. No question. But it’s not about the size of the wave my friend, it’s the motion of the ocean.
In Harry Potter lore the wand is one of three objects given … crap I forget… was it from death himself? Like the wand, is as powerful as the embodiment of death… maybe. But again I’m empirical, even with the wand D didn’t have an easy fight with the big bad Voldemort. So I’m just saying it’s powerful enough to make it a fair-ish fight with our friendly Demi-god.
Can you offer uses of G’s power beyond what I said though. Cause my memory is stuck in movies. I saw shields and amorphous waves of force against the balrog. I mean, I guess you could keep that up for two days. Maybe a sword swing or two. It’s a tough fight and one I’m reasonably confident I would lose but again, what did he do? Powers not much if you’re just the most powerful shield. It’s certainly useful, you can even bash with a good shield. But it’s just not a spear.
@Canis Arktos, he can cast lightning as well as infuse his sword with lightning, various fire attacks that are enhanced by narya, the ring of power that he wears, he is the wielder of the flame of Anor (anor is the sun), telekinesis, mind control, resistance to mind control, he can read minds, magical shields, vlinding light, he can cause massive Shockwaves, and the most important one for this fight: counterspell.
Counterspell negates all magic when he casts it, it's only weakness is he can't use it on spells from beings more powerful than himself.
Combine all that with his superior speed, durability, reflexes, etc and I think D is beaten. Maybe not easily, but I think G has got this.
@Mantis Tobaggan, I want to believe
I want to believe but can you cite a point in the book, movie, whatever where he does the lightning or fire or a controlled telekinesis thing? Just one I swear I don’t need you to cite your source for every last bit but even one that time is enough.
@Canis Arktos, he summoned lightning into his sword and stabbed the Balrog with it to kill it in the movies, he used light, or lightning I can't remember to create a massive Shockwave against the goblins in the first hobbit movie and sent many falling into the chasm below, he lit pinecones on fire and threw them at some wargs in the same movie, against Azog the defiled he held him back with telekinesis, used concussion magic to shatter stone on several occasions throughout the series, including shattering the bridge to fight the balrog, shoved Sauron around with telekinesis in their fight, shoved possessed Theodin with telekinesis and removed his curse, and heated up aragorns sword to force him to drop it.
That is just the movies too, there's probably more in the books.
@Mantis Tobaggan, you’re right! I remember now! Gandalf wins.
@Canis Arktos, It's because magic in lotr. Isn't in your face like Harry Potter. Alot of Gandalfs magic and sarumans is implied. Like when he uses a spell to stop the Balrog opening the door. Or sarumans voice being his power. It's directly stated that no weapon could possibly harm Gandalf. I'm gonna say that applies to any spell Dumbledore may have
@Rudolph Schmidt , so as you can read, I just admitted that when remembering certain events, Gandalf wins.
That said, I’m ready to rumble… let’s do it. I’ll defend this devil.
The elder wand is said to have tremendous power able to “perform feats of magic that would normally be impossible even for the most powerful witch or wizard”.
To me that says that D has at least a shot of getting past the shield, particularly when G isn’t actively focusing on it. And the speed with which D can drop spells seems faster than G.
You’re 100% right though that G’s magic is less obvious, until it’s happening. We don’t know if it took him 2 min of meditation or a flicker of thought to bring the pain. Was he weaving 12 spells simultaneously and dropping them in rapid succession(making it look like each took 1 second instead of two min.
It’s fun to think about so thanks for proposing it.
@Canis Arktos, Okay dude what shield are you referring to? Can't recall gandalf ever using a shield
@Rudolph Schmidt , shield was faster to type than “that thing that makes it so ‘no man could possibly harm Gandalf.’”
Plus: Saruman and the Balrog both seemed to at least have given Gandalf a bad day with use of magic so at least in his grey days he was susceptible to some things. Oh, and the ring. He dared not touch it because (ok, maybe it would have corrupted rather than hurt him but again,) he’s not impervious to all things
And I took that personally.
I like how the colors of the fabric made me think of the 90s before I realized those headphones do too....
...but he could
Gandalf never really does much with magic that comes anywhere near Dumbledore’s capability.
Although Dumbledore would most likely win, Gandalf can just come back for more if he wants to.
@I Are Lebo, Bc his magic is implied and not fire balls like Harry Potter Gandalf wins bc he's a divine being who can't be harmed by a mortal
@Rudolph Schmidt , other than resurrecting, Gandalf just doesn’t really actually…. DO all that much, magically speaking.
Far less in the books than in the movie. He acts as more of a wise man and leader than as a powerful finger-wiggler.
@I Are Lebo, In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
‘Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!’ he cried. There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him the fellowship of the ring burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light.
@I Are Lebo, I question if someone read the books if they claim gandalf does more in the movies. Considering there's alot left out of the movies. Gandalfs magic isn't "razzle dazzle!" It's more implied like how in this scene his power grows and he reveals some of his true self to defend the fellowship. Magic in lotr is described in a way that is near impossible to translate to film. Like saurumans power comes from his voice. It's directly stated gandalf can't be killed by a mortal his power is great and people don't understand it so its called magic but it's alot more than that.
@Rudolph Schmidt , most of the magics that Gandalf uses would be covered under the minor illusion cantrip from 5e. A couple of his illusions would progress to Silent Image, but I don’t think any of them would so much have required Major Image.
For all the shock and awe, he doesn’t actually do much. He doesn’t take on the Nazgûl, he doesn’t take on the goblins, the only time he really acts like a badass is against the Balrog.
And I was referencing the movies because of stuff like the conflict with the possessed Theoden. The book was more subtle about how the man was being influenced by Wormtimgue, and so he was less magicky in that scene than in the Peter Jackson films.
He does more in the films because the films needed him to be more flashy.
The point is that vague ‘power’ isn’t really going to stand in a duel. Gandalf shows no ability to block or deal large scale damage, as evidenced by the fact that nearly every time he enters a battle, his primary weapon is a sword, not a spell.
@Rudolph Schmidt , ultimately, Dumbledore vs Gandalf is like Superman vs Goku.
The power systems are incompatible.