"Which one do I click to make everyone like me?"
@SimonPetrikov, neither, either way you're wrong
@SimonPetrikov, business 101. Never take a side on politics.
@Caine, Internet journalism 101: Take whatever side is popular at the time
@SimonPetrikov, nobody likes huffpost
Ok this is clearly either a straw man or gross misunderstanding, the general idea behind gender identity is that gender is a social construct, while SEX is a physical trait. You can have a female body but mentally be male, and that’s where conversion therapy comes in. Regardless of your viewpoint, it’s clear that the pic is just ignoring established components of the debate.
@YUNoJump, that Viking chick butch af
@YUNoJump, so a Huffington post article reporting news then?
@YUNoJump, it's hardly a straw man, you can't have it every way
@YUNoJump, "mentally be a male" what is it to mentally be a male? Lol so somehow they can magically stick their "dick" in a vagina and have kids now
Because theyre "mentally a male"?
@YUNoJump, we need to find more psychiatric hospitals for people with that kind of mental illness
@GunLovingMerican, apparently enjoying stuff that is more geared toward men means your "mentally a male" as opposed to being a female that just likes cars or building things. Isn't society great?
@Richard Cypher, ok, so, real question. Given that, yes, there is a mental health component to gender identity issues, what is your proposal? How do you suggest that be treated? You want to medicate them? With what, exactly? Anti depressants? Heavy antipsychotics? Or just a sedative, so they’re numb enough that you don’t have to hear them complain about how uncomfortable they feel in their own skin? Even with therapy, I mean, the whole idea, if I’m assuming correctly, would to simply push an agenda on the patient that they accept who they are, rather than strive for who they want to be. Mental health care is consumer driven. The idea is to help them achieve as close to their ideal self as is safely attainable.
@Berntley, just zap them with enough volts to fix them
@Richard Cypher, DEFINITELY doesn’t work that way. I pray no one in your family or daily life is struggling with mental illness, because if they are, you probably make them feel like shît on a regular basis.
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, i like how they get to decide whats a male activity and whats for females, fvckin being sexists and they dont even realize it.
This is actually an incredibly easy to understand issue that the far left has frankly made impossible to talk sanely about. Basically, if you are born as the female sex and like to do things that are considered predominantly masculine by society, you are still a woman. You are just a woman who likes to do those certain things. Now, if you have a mental illness where you actually believe you are a different sex than you are, you have someone that needs to be medically evaluated. Mental illness is mental illness, in the same way depression and transgenderism(was) are classified as mental illnesses by the WHO. There is no difference between sex and gender, the far left made this up because they felt those who behavied atypically for their sex were being marginalized, which may be true but does not justify making up science. The only caveat to any of this is people who are born with both genitalia.
@GunLovingMerican, I believe it has to do with testosterone and estrogen levels in the body that cause a person to feel more male/female. This is a guess though based on the fact that men have more testosterone and women have more estrogen.
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, There’s a difference between being into things that are typically male and feeling like a man. Using your example, a female can be into cars, sports, etc and still identify herself as a female. A female who is mentally male actually thinks they are a man who is born in the wrong body, which is different
@GunLovingMerican, I never got that claim either. Some days I feel like I want beer & a fight, others I want ice-cream & a slanket - pretty sure that’s a reflection of my mood, not my gender, and I’m still male on both occasions!
@Berntley, I am acquainted with a number of people who do not identify with their birth genders, through a friend whose sister used to be her brother (in short, there are a lot of Filipino trannies at their family BBQs). In all cases they aren’t interested in gender neutral pronouns or 37 different gender options - they all want to be referred to in the feminine. They’ve taken gallons of hormones and spent a fortune on surgery (lip, chest, hip and butt implants; rib removal; cheek, nose and chin surgery) to be female. It’s how they want to be treated.
Not arguing with you, just giving my experience.
**Edit - they probably still all have their man-junk though**
@GunLovingMerican, So you've made absolutely no effort to research this issue. Cool, thanks for your incredibly valuable input.
@YUNoJump, a lot of people, many of whom present themselves as professionals, argue that there is no biological difference between the sexes AND that gender is entirely a social construct. This is lunacy. Both sex and gender are evolved traits that serve very specific AND CONNECTED roles in our lives.
On top of that, the arguments negate themselves. If gender was purely social, changing your gender would be easier than changing your clothes. You can buck social rules for what it means to be a man or a woman without being transgender, breaking stereotype doesn’t make you trans. The very fact that transgenderism, transsexualism, and gender dysphoria exists belies this argument about gender being a social construct.
You CAN have a female body but be mentally male, but refusing to buy into social standards for women, ie wearing makeup, women’s clothes, being demure, looking your best, etc doesn’t make you a man, it makes you independent.
@YUNoJump, “female body but mentally male”. The problem with your claim is you are destroying the feminist argument with this line of thinking. You can’t on one hand say men and women are the exact same and all that differentiates them is their sex organs. But then turn around and say people are born with the wrong sex organs because they are mentally of the other sex. Both of these cannot be true. They can both be wrong, but they cannot both be true.
@Nellybert , thanks for the information, genuinely. I wasn’t really trying to make this a debate about that, though. Like, the idea of all these different genders, I don’t know where to begin with that, aside from with the person themselves. Where I take issue here is with the idea, not even that gender identity is not a mental health matter, but the idea that it needs to be cured, treated, or repressed. Because that’s really not how it works, and is a dangerous position that basically shows that most people probably don’t understand how dark the history of mental illness really is. This sort of thinking is why we used to have asylums outside of cities where the mentally ill would either live out their days under full sedation, or they’d get ice picks shoved into their brains. As someone who is wholly unaffected by gender identity issues, my only role in this matter is to be accepting.
@Berntley, lol I wasn’t being serious. But I am curious; when someone is diagnosed with schizophrenia, what happens? What do we do? Or what about Bulemia? That’s a mental disorder where the person has “chosen” to get rid of food they eat. My only issue with this topic is the assumption that it should be seen as normal. It’s not normal and should never be characterized as such. That doesn’t mean I think they should be drugged or locked away or whatever. I don’t really care what someone thinks they are. I take issue with saying it should be perfectly accepted as normal and, for example, kids should be made to be gender neutral until they are old enough to decide what they want to be. That’s not normal and shouldn’t be encouraged.
@Berntley, I agree that they don’t need to be ‘treated’ or ‘cured’ - if they’re happier with a gender that doesn’t match their plumbing, so be it. I’m not a fan of the whole 30+ genders thing personally (but that’s just my opinion, doesn’t mean I’m right), but I have no issue with anyone who feels the need to transition from one gender to the other.
@YUNoJump, oh that's a nice defense you've got there. Problem is, no one is consistently saying what you are saying! There are gender studies professors saying there are no biological differences between men and women. So I'd say this pic is not ignoring established components of the debate.
By the way, if gender is a social construct, and people can identify mentally as one or the other, why don't they choose to be their "assigned" gender?
@GunLovingMerican, it can mean something like have a larger SDN of the POA or a smaller AVPV in the brain. It can mean having neural networks sensitized to act more aggressively. It can mean having an insensitivity or oversensitivity to a certain hormone which can change secondary sex characteristics. There is a large sexual dimorphism as is entirely apparent and more and more areas in the brain have been found to be so. And as is with the case to biology there's always exceptions to standards and do to horomones and receptors people can express different phenotypes. It's more than just thinking you're male because you like male typical things. It's that engrained self identity that has a neurologic substrate that can be affected by hormones
@YUNoJump, came here to say this. Deliberately misrepresenting the other side's argument only proves you're not confident of the validity of your own.
@Richard Cypher, Fair enough. On the topic of schizophrenia, I mean, they are medicated per their symptoms and it’s managed, but it never goes away. That person is on medications for the rest of their life, if they’re able to remain compliant with treatment. Sometimes they aren’t, and they get worse. They get hurt, or they hurt themselves. And with bulimia or other eating disorders, the person is hurting themselves in a number of unhealthy ways to reach what is often an unhealthy result of being stick thin. Comparing it with gender adjustment methods, the result itself is not a risk to the individual’s safety, so it’s not quite the same. Though there are certainly risks involved. As for accepting as normal, I mean, again, how does it affect us? Aside from occasionally adjusting the terminology we’re used to, there is no harm in normalization. Gender neutrality isn’t quite what a lot of opponents make it out to be. It’s not referring to your son or daughter as “they” or “it” until
@YUNoJump, yes gender has become a synonym of personality. Essentially.
@Berntley, they tell YOU what they want to be known as. It’s really more about not enforcing gender stereotypes. Not telling boys they can’t play with barbies or girls that they can’t work on cars. There are some zealots who will say “if you call your son a boy, you’re scarring them for life. Children are too young to be subjected to such pressures”. Fvcking batshît, in my opinion. However, I saw a man playing with his maybe three or four year old son on a playground, and the boy was super happy and excited, and would get kinda squealy, as kids do, and the dad would say “quit screaming, you’re not a girl. Only girls scream like that”. And when his son wanted to go down a small slide, rather than the big one, the dad would say “no, I don’t wanna go down that slide. That one is weak. Go down this one, like a man.” And I’m sorry, but that’s fvcking gross. THAT is how kids grow up to have complexes in the first place. Internal desire vs external expectations. If you push that line too hard
@Berntley, you can cause a lot of damage. A lot more than you cause by having your kids understand that sometimes boys wanna be girls, girls wanna be boys, and some people are a little in between.
@Richard Cypher, oh, and I apologize for my previous, retrospectively shîtty comment.
@Nellybert , I agree. I think that the muddy waters are a product of stigma, personally, and a mixture of the social vs biological aspects of gender. If we were to normalize both gender neutrality (as a lack of barrier between how we raise children, regardless of their gender, not to be confused with raising children as “it” until they decide what they are) and gender identity as acceptable constructs, then all this gender spectrum enforcement might dwindle away. However, I can’t presume to know the motivations or agendas of the LGBTQ(etc.) community at large on this matter.
@Berntley, I’ll be honest, my first-born will be dressed & addresses according to their plumbing unless they later request otherwise. They’re gay? I’m cool with that, my sister-in-law is too - they have some awesome bars & clubs. Gender dysmorphia? I’ll be supportive and get Angel to take him/her clothes shopping. Gender-fluid non-binary animalkin? I’m moving to a bunker in the whichever part of America it is people go to be safe from the Deep State/Lizardmen/Freemasons. 😋
@Nellybert , haha, well you’re two for three on supportive parent, and the last one is borderline understandable. But I’m right there with you. My daughters wear dresses and skirts and bows in their hair. However, those dresses have bat symbols and Spider-Man logos on them, as well as unicorns and flowers and shît. It’s easier to do with girls, I think, but mainly for the same reason it used to be difficult for them. You never used to see that stuff on girls clothes. It was all princesses and ponies. However, now, if a boy wanted to wear, say, powerpuff girls merch, his parents are probably gonna have to buy from the girls section, and a lot of parents can still find that hard to do for a boy. There’s a much higher expectation for men to be manly (and harsher punishment when they’re not) these days than there is for girls to be girly. That could do to come to a middle any time now.
@Berntley, C’mon, your kid tells you they identify as a unicorn or something, that’s reasonable grounds for having them adopted! 😋
I physically and mentally identify as male, but I was not a macho kid - hell, I came second in a drag beauty contest in my first year at uni! (I reckon I’d have won if I shaved my legs though). I believe that boys can play with dolls and girls can play with toy guns without it making it necessary to question their gender identity. If they decide they were born in the wrong body, that’s fine. I just question the need for the 30 or so ‘other’ genders. (Although I do believe there are times when physical gender is important - such as dating apps (“do you have a vagina?” is not an easy one to shoehorn in to the start of a tinder match) and medical records (whatever life choices I make, I’ll need reminders about prostate exams more than smear tests). )
@Nellybert , I was the same. In fact, I’m rather certain my (lesbian) mother was hoping I’d turn out gay. She pushed me to get my ear pierced in third grade, and to start playing the flute in fifth. I was always a bit effeminate, because I was raised around nothing but women (and thank god, because the male influences that COULD have been present would have done me no favors). And of course, there HAS to be some level of reasonable recognition of one’s own biological makeup, both medically AND romantically. If you want to be respected for being some kind of middle gender or switched gender, you have to respect that that might be a deal breaker for some people. Others, it won’t be. Personally, I have no problem admitting when a transgendered woman is attractive, but I’ll admit I have reservations about carrying that over to a romantic/sexual interest (granted, I’m married, so that’s a moot point). But still, that comes down to a matter of preference, and is important to make clear.
@YUNoJump, if gender is a social construct, then someone who identifies as a different gender is just identifying with all the megative stereotypes of that gender which further reenforces the same stereotypes people like me try to break down. before the whole gender fluid thing, people would see me and go "oh hes a dude who likes pink, MLP, etc." (which is exactly what i am). now they worry about mis gendering me but no I'm just a dude who has some likes similar to some women. TLDR people who identify as random genders makes my job at trying to break gender stereotypes harder cuz all theyre doing is reenforcing those stereotypes
@YUNoJump, let me ask you something if gender is a social construct and men and women arnt defined specifically by masculine and feminine traits. Then how is a man trapped in a womans body and vice a versa?
@Berntley, maybe start with not letting them cut off their wangs and cl!ts. And taking highly carcinogenic hormones. And go from there. There mentally ill and you wouldnt let someone chop off their own arm because they thought it shouldnt be there.
@Berntley, i hope nobody in your family suffers from mental illness either cause you're likely to tell them to listen to those voices in their head cause theyre real.
@TriangleTesticles, have you actrually talked to a non- binary person or the kind that changes genders on a whim because thats exactly what they think.
@Nellybert , its a shame theyre all gonna die. Those hormones are highly carcinogenic... and cancer isnt a pretty way to go.
@BlazingBowman, I work in Mental health. I also have a mother who believes her dead husband talks to her, and I’m the only one who doesn’t enable that. The thing is, it’s about understanding what’s harmful and what’s arbitrary. And it’s about validating without sensationalizing. If someone thinks people are trying to kill them, I don’t have to make them think I believe them in order to understand why that would make them afraid, and addressing that. You see, addressing mental illness is not about suppressing the illness, making it go away, or pounding them into submission. There’s a balance.
@Berntley, and yet you support someone mutilating themselves and taking highly carcinogenic hormone treatments... sure.
@BlazingBowman, so I ask you the same question. What would your proposal be? How do you think these individuals should be addressed? Just continue stigmatizing them? Tell them to stop feeling the way they feel? Do you think psychiatric medications would be better? If so, which ones would treat this issue? Which medication would make someone who feels completely out of place in their own skin stop wanting to be who they want to be? If we can agree to there being a mental health element to gender identity issues, how should this be treated?
@Berntley, id prescribe them the same treatment i would prescribe someone whos trying to chop his own arm off. No you cant chop your arm off tom. No tom thats a bad tom. For f#cks sake dude what would you do if your mom was choping off her toes one by one.
@BlazingBowman, Gender reassignment is a little different than that. And yeah, people who willfully amputate themselves, I strongly disagree with. However, even those cases come to a point where, if they aren’t able to resolve their issues, it becomes a matter of safety. However, gender reassignment is more akin to cosmetic surgery, in most cases. Level of functionality varies, to my understanding. But would you suggest outlawing breast implants for women? Or nose jobs, chins, and cheeks? What about teeth whitening and tanning booths? Maybe even tattoos and hair dye. These are all cosmetic choices that people turn to to feel more like the person they feel they should be. This is usually stemming from some manner of insecurity that leads to an identity crisis. All these things are just smaller versions of what gender identity issues really are. I’m not a heavy proponent for reassignment, but if it’s really the only thing that’s going to allow them to feel like a real person, so be it.
@Berntley, cosmetic huh, guess i mustve imagined the carcinogenic hormones, and the irreversable damage to their privates. Dont try to freaking lie to me its highly invasive amd dangerous procedure its not like getting a botox. But hey its cosmetic in the same since as surgically sewing your feet together to become a mermaid. Do you even buy the crap your peddeling.
@BlazingBowman, The hormones are oestrogen - they basically take the contraceptive pill or the HRT treatment given to menopausal women. Probably does increase the odds of some cancers (doesn’t everything?) - reduces the odds of prostate cancer though.
@BlazingBowman, it’s true, there’s risks. As with all cosmetic surgery. But what’s your real End game here? Are you actually concerned for these people? You wanna tell me you’re trying to save them? That you care and you have your best interests at heart? Or is it that you have trouble imagining yourself being in a world where people are allowed to make these choices? Where you might be walking down the street, checking out some fine ass, and then realizing you were looking at someone who used to be a man. You think all people need to fit into categories that you understand, and you want to be able to label and ostracize anyone who doesn’t. People don’t have to play by your rules. People like you don’t care about them. You just think it’s wrong, and you’ll operate under any guise to make sure the idea gets snuffed out.
@Nellybert , what are you talking about oestrogen is highly carcinogenic. It takes only a 15 second google search to find that out.
@BlazingBowman, Oestrogen is basically the female version of testosterone - it’s naturally occurring in the human body. It’s also a key ingredient in the pill (as the female sex hormone it regulates the fertility cycle) and given the post-menopausal women as a supplement when their bodies aren’t producing enough.
@BlazingBowman, Right, found it. Oestrogen is known to increase the risks of breast, womb and ovarian cancer. It’s a tiny risk increase for women and probably not a big concern when you do not have breasts, a womb or ovaries because you’re biologically male anyway.......
@Berntley, alot to unpackage there. Im a live and let live guy you seem to think im some sort of authoritarian. But the fact is facts dont support you're feelings. And transgenders should be treated just like every other mental illness who want to chop of limbs of theirs. You dont seem to understand the underlying concept of this so lets back up. People with schizophrenia arnt told the shadows on the edge of their vision are real. Theyre treated so they can have some semblance of a normal life. But oh wait lets not do that. Lets not label it as a mental illness that could be embarassing and ostracizing dont be a bigot you cant tell them how to live their lives. Jesus christ do you even listen to yourself. But no paint me as the monster while you self gratify yourself with social brownie points all on the destroyed lives of people you're trying to "help". In the end theres a reason 50% of all trans people kill themselves before theyre 30.
@BlazingBowman, “The problem with allowing transgender people to undergo gender reassignment is that schizophrenia is bad”. That’s your basic argument. If schizophrenia is bad if left untreated, then obviously an identity crisis must be forcefully repressed in order to save these people. Schizophrenia is not the catch all comparison for mental illness. It is complex, dangerous, and a completely different condition from other mental illness. Furthermore, that statistic, for which the “actual” number is 41%, is a largely skewed statistic. If the same study were performed on the general population, the number would roughly double. That’s because the number comes from a survey asked of exclusively transgender individuals (no control comparison), asking if they had ever attempted suicide. No clarification on when or why or whether it was a “serious” attempt or not (which no, doesn’t actually matter). So this could range from suicidality in their youth, due to rejection from expressing their
@Berntley, gender nonconformity, could have been due to not being able to pursue gender reassignment for a number of reasons, or, yes, because they followed through with the transition, and later regretted it (or even continued to have other underlying mental health issues such as depression, or for still being rejected or ostracized following surgery). There is absolutely no clarity in that statistic. Another study, which followed individuals over a thirty year time period following gender reassignment surgery in the seventies, showed that overall mortality, as well as suicide rates, WERE significantly higher than the general population, but the actual suicide rate was still relatively low. Nowhere near 50%. With margin of error, I believe it was somewhere between 1.5 and 5%. However, in more recent studies, even that number has drastically increased (as general acceptance and support has increased, and the transitional procedures have greatly improved), and post-op regret has reduced
@Berntley, to around 0.3%.
I though Viking warrior woman was common knowledge about the Vikings to anyone who’s learnt about the Vikings ever.
Um we knew about female Viking, remember for honor
I only know this cuz of my RA class but yeah gender can be picked and changed at whim. It's what u identify as. Them saying female is defining the sex which never changes. Educated trans people know this and won't get offended by it.
@Nellybert , your fake news i litterally just looked again and though it mentions cancers in those areas it does not by any means even impy that those are the only places these will cause cancer. In fact you also forgot to mention prostate cancer on that possible list. Also you seem to fail to understand how cancer works. You get it in one area it spreads to the rest of you're body. Get out of here dude.
But wouldn't they be viqueens?
Did Huffington Post just assume that vikings gender?
I need to add, that it have long been known amongst archaeologists that the grave gifts and the skeletal remains from many of the graves from the Birka-gravefield have been mixed up. The results of the DNA-test only confirm this.
I love how people are acting like a scientific fact such as sex can be changed? Unless you're a hermaphrodite you should just accept science, people can die at this rate
I just found out that Huff Post isn't actually just one guy writing stuff, so there might sometimes be a variety of views expressed on it. Weird.
@Truthcat, it’s actually a group consciousness known as “the liberal left”
@Richard Cypher, ok, but so what? People act as though calling something "liberal left" automatically wins the debate.
And really, who the hell cares about all this gender identity stuff? Why does everyone feel so threatened by it? Aren't there better things to take a stand against?
@Truthcat, not having a debate anyway. Just stating a fact. And not threatened
@ThePooper, snakes have legs