Once I got in a fight when I told a trans I didn't believe in gender-identity, i.e. I identify as nonconformist. That anyone could wear whatever they wanted, act however they wanted, and that I wanted to rid the world of gender stereotypes (women/men's shoes, boys/girls toys, women's/mens cars, drinks, actions, etc)
She then said I should be forced to accept and respect her gender identity and that gender is an actual thing and she wasn't going to respect me if I didn't respect her gender.
I told her I don't believe in anyone's gender. I respect people not based on their gender, but who they are. I don't believe in identified gender because in reality identifying as gender doesn't change anything and shouldn't control how you act feel or think.
I'm not judging you based on you identifying as female or male. I'm identifying you as a person, and you are free to act however you want to."
She then said "I don't care, I identify as a gender and you are discriminating against me"
She continued saying "you can't not believe in something that is real"
I then asked her to please explain to me where I was wrong so I can better understand.
She then said "I don't need to explain anything to you"
I then said "But I believe something and youre telling me I'm wrong. I explained what I believe. Can you tell me where I'm wrong and explain to me what identifying as a gender is?"
She continued "You don't respect my gender, I don't need to respect you. I don't need to explain anything to you."
I said "Because of my beliefs i don't believe in gender identity. I respect you as a person,not based on your gender. Isnt that why you didn't identify on your gender?"
Again she said she didn't need to explain anything.
"Ok well then we can agree to disagree"
She said "No we can't. You're wrong. I identify as a gender and you have to accept that, otherwise leave. You're [insert insults here]. Get out. Leave."
"I don't have to. You're also not respecting my beliefs."
She then continued to harass me stating I had to accept her gender identity and that we couldn't disagree because she was right and was about inclusion and all this trans grace when really she was none of that.
Good job. She really did a good job at including my beliefs and letting me be who I wanted to be.
@The Freaking FBI, it happened on discord, august 2nd round 11pm, with the owner of the discord.
I'll jump to the juicy bits, actual quotes this time:
"no we can't agree to disagree"
*What are you talking about?*
"It's either you respect my identity or you leave and don't come back"
*we clearly stated different views. I respect you as a person and your views. We clearly see differently. I respect you as a person if they're sensible and competent. That's how you gain my respect*
*It isn't what you are, it's who you are that matters to me*
"My identity is [identifying], this matters to me, if you think it doesn't matter, that's honestly harmful and I really don't feel comfortable knowing that someone on this server is respecting my identify."
*Then you don't need to respect my identity. I don't care about it*
*Why arent you happy that I'm not seeing you as a gender/identity and trying to instead view you as any person?*
"My gender identity matters to me"
*Ok, cool. I don't believe in...
@Tentastic, ok fair enough. Nice formatting tho.
gender, so I hope you don't force any beliefs on me. I won't force any on you.*
3rd: "people are an amalgam of identities, if you deny one and pretend it's not real that's like you're not accepting the person as they are"
*I'm not denying one, I just don't think it matters. The same way we can say what our favorite colors are. Just because we have favorite colors doesn't mean we should judge people based on their favorite color*
"And it matters to me and I really hope you can respect that"
*Cool I respect that It matters to you*
"Gender is real, it's literally a social construct, but it's real it's my gender and I get to say if it's real"
goes on more, Ended like this:
*I don't believe in genders. I hope you can respect my beliefs in nonconformity.*
"last warning no like seriously it feels very uncomfortable knowing someone doesn't respect my identity by not respecting genders"
@Tentastic, that’s a valid argument, and I’m sorry you had that experience. I think most trans people are so used to fighting for their existence, this person gave you a knee jerk reaction. As long as you’re respectful to people, hopefully they’ll listen to your views more since it has merit.
@Tentastic, and I actually think that’s what most trans and left-leaning people think anyway. Gender is not inherent or real or tangible, especially since many societies have differing views of gender, gender roles, and gender expression. That being said, I hope you do realise the complexity of the issue and how self identification can help some people (especially trans people with gender dysphoria/body Dismorphia) cope.
@griffinstorme, heres where I get disagree with them though:
There are genetic sexual body differences that we need to take into account, aka our body shapes and needs, which makes bathroom difference make sense.
Secondly, the he/she thing should be physical identification/how you present (feminine/masculine physical appearance). I agree on people presenting how they want (wearing makeup, talking a certain way, having body implants) and that's what pronouns should be for.
The fact we have 'transwomen' (who aren't women physically) in women sports is not ok.
@Tentastic, why do we need separate bathrooms? You have urinals for people who pee standing up and stalls for people who pee sitting down. There really aren’t separate needs.
And why should language be tied to arbitrary sex characteristics? And what’s more you just said “feminine and masculine” in appearance. But what exactly defines that? Even what we think of as masc or femme appearance is based on societal expectations. You cited makeup... but thinking of makeup as feminine is societal conditioning. Speech patterns are largely determined by upbringing. Body shapes and sizes vary widely, so should a woman with naturally no breasts be called he? I have a biologically female friend with facial hair, so what about her?
Just some food for thought. I like your original line of thinking but you just seem to contradict the logic there a little bit.
@griffinstorme, remove makeup there.
There are these things called hormones. The average male is heavier, hairier, stronger, deeper voice, and more agressive than the average female.
Females bodies are also built up for the creation of babies, wider hips, mammary glands.
Yes, there are cases where the opposite is true. However, on average, the above of what I just said is true.
This means that there are distinct male and female bodies.
These characteristics are what I would use for pronoun identification.
The same way we see blond hair, we can see masculine or feminine bodies.
However, there are cases of dirty blond where it could be called blond or brown, and is up for the person to decide. The same is true for male/female bodies.
The bathroom thing: on average, a male is attracted to a female. There's this thing called sexual harassment.
Unfortunately not all human beings are decent, especially in their youth of puberty.
This is why there should be separate bathrooms.
@Tentastic, hoooo boy! and I thought I said some controversial stuff...
@Tentastic, i applaud you for taking the time to write a story. Just keep in mind in society was built using groups. People@have the need to be part of groups. Removing gender identity, is removing a group. People have the need to be part of groups as many people believe it is this groups or associations that create who they are. In reality this is untrue, they are merely symptoms of yourself. However, the untrue connection is hardwired into many and changing societies take on that will prove nearly impossible in the short term.
@Tentastic, on another note, bathrooms in other parts of the world are for both male and female and there are no issues. The inly time a real issue would arise is from a stalker or something and that holds true today. Kids will be kids, when inwas in school boys and girls would go in the bathrooms of eachother for pranks and what not. Nothing was ever done about it.
@Implicit88, I agree that groups are an important part of life in similar ideas and experiences for companionship.
However, the idea of gender identity creates no group- because from what I've heard from trans people, "it's what you see in yourself".
They're self defining gender, meaning their idea of gender defers from others- creating no group of collective thought.
Gender undermined groups.
Track and field was separated for body ability purposes, but gender identity ruined that and now trans-girls (not biological girls) have an unfair advantage.
The boy scouts, a biological male group who were together finding companionship in alike bodies, took in girls- thus destroying the biological male nature of the group.
You may think "oh it's sexist to not allow girls into a male group" but think about it this way: the girl scouts were sexist for not doing the same activities as the boy scouts. They could do the same activities, but they were sexist choosing not to.
@Tentastic, I don't agree with the idea of forcing gender recognition claiming by-default that its discrimination. That line of thinking can get way out of hand. It would be similar to saying someone is discriminating against me because they didn't use my name, even if they don't know my name. On the other hand, I say feel free to identify as whatever gender you want, and we can agree on some socially acceptable way for me to ask, if I care to, what your gender is. However, similarly, I don't have to ask for, use, or know your name, or gender, if I don't want to. While that could be considered rude at-best, it's not discrimination.
Another example is religions during the winter holidays is getting out of hand. Free speech lets me be rude and say "Merry Christmas," "Happy Holidays," or whatever offends you. It's not discrimination, it's just rude. Personally, if I want to get to know someone, I'll ask, "what holiday do you celebrate this time of year?" Otherwise, f' em and say nothing.
@Tentastic, the group doesn’t necessarily have to be another identity, it can be the lack of defining or fitting into a normal identity. I do not agree that males and females should compete in each others groups unless both are combines.
@griffinstorme, it is not the responsibility of strangers to help someone cope with a mental health issue. For trans or non binary people to demand that their pronouns be used against the will of those who would rather not, that’s the trans or non binary person overtly placing their own well-being above the well-being of anyone who would dissent from their ideology.
It’s not compassionate to expect people to abandon their principles to serve the feelings of others.
@Tentastic, what a cunt. I mean dick. I mean...
@Jamzunn, don't worry, I do find trans women to be the biggest cunts out there because it's not acceptable as men to act like that
@I Are Lebo, to boil it down to pronouns isn't what I find to be the main issue.
I don't mind calling drag Queens 'she' because they're female presenting, the same way I wouldnt call people's hair 'brown' while they wear a blonde wig or dyed blonde.
@Tentastic, so you got in an argument with a retard?
@I Are Lebo, I like dat.
@Tentastic, I work at truckstops where there are a few transgender employees we’ve hired and from what I’ve seen personally, there’s transgender people with shjt personalities and ones with excellent ones. In the end we’re all the same...
Undead soldiers for the dark lord.
@funkymoosechops, I do agree with this.
What someone is should not constitute to their personality- one of the reasons I consider myself nonconformist.
You shouldn't be stereotyped based on any physical traits.
@Tentastic, no, I definitely agree. The primary issue isn’t about respecting the desired honourifics of a particular individual, it’s about pushing back against the cultivation of a society that does not respect the boundaries between fantasy and reality.
However, that’s a big picture issue, and cannot be tackled all at once. In the interim, I believe the issue to be fairly easily solvable:
No one has the right to dictate what other people call them. No one.
@Tentastic, also, I very much agree with you regarding sports. I find it difficult to understand how all of these self absorbed people fail to comprehend that this will literally destroy female competitive sports. Mtf trans so thoroughly dominate every field that they are allowed to compete in because of the basic biology of it, and if enough officials stick their heads in the sand it will cause pro woman corporations to withdraw any funding or support because all of the actual female athletes simply cannot compete.
The very same people who are so adamant about “supporting women” don’t seem to give a damn about the steadily increasing amount of female athletes unable to get scholarships because more than half of the slots are guaranteed to go to people with testicles and a seriously unfair advantage.
It doesn’t work both ways. Mtf athletes destroy the competition, while ftm athletes are bottom ringers at best in top level competitive sport.
Reality isn’t transphobic.
@I Are Lebo, being trans... isn’t an ideology. If you refuse to respect people, you’re just a dick
@Tentastic, you went off the rails, and your ideology is inconsistent with itself. I’m out.
@griffinstorme, I'm sorry I don't quite understand. I explained everything to the best of my ability and you claim I'm inconsistent. Can you please explain your thoughts so I can either express mine better or perhaps realize that I'm wrong?
@griffinstorme, believing that gender is solely a social construct and that the self identification is both more relevant and more important than the biological reality IS an ideology.
The ideology that states that someone identifying as something they clearly are not should simply be treated as what they claim to be is in opposition to people with more pragmatic perspectives.
It is no one’s right to dictate how other people perceive them, or how they’re referred to. That’s not respect that’s being demanded. It’s deference. There’s a massive difference. I’m not disrespecting a man in woman’s clothing by refusing to call him “ma’am”, he’s disrespecting me by putting his feelings over mine. It’s not my responsibility to maintain his delusion.
@griffinstorme, if this is about when I said "the biggest cunt out there" (I hope it is) then I'm glad you noticed due to it being hypocritical.
I just grouped collectively 'trans-female' and called all of them cunts, and men don't act like cunts. How can I someone who wants to rid any stereotypes of the world in an unconfornist view make such a statement about a sex?
Because I didn't make a statement about a sex.
Gender is supposedly self defined, right?
So I just self defined it in my own terms what it means to identify as a male gender vs a female gender.
Notice I said nothing about biological sex.
They're the ones choosing to say themselves they're "female gender". And if they're a cunt, that means I can mark the "female gender" as cunts.
Meanwhile, biological females actually have a definition and if you make a subjective statement, it is false because the notation "biological female" carries no connotations and can be proven by definition.
@griffinstorme, I would welcome you to explain to me where you are in disagreement with me.
@I Are Lebo, oh my god, fine.
First off, I never said that gender was more important than biological sex. They’re just two different, co-existent concepts.
“Someone identifying as something they’re not.” To make that broad of a statement, you need to first define what biological sex exactly is and who fits that definition, and defend your position. You then need to define gender and prove that it’s an extent concept somehow inherently tied to biological sex. Since both sex and gender are fairly vague concepts in biology, anthropology, and sociology, I wish you luck.
And yes, refusing to call someone by their preferred pronouns just makes you a rude person, regardless of what you think about them. Moreover, language has no intrinsic link to these previous concepts so don’t even go that route. If you meet a trans person and don’t know they’re trans, you use their preferred pronouns. Knowing someone is trans should be no different
@Tentastic, im not saying this just to end the discussion or be rude, but I literally don’t understand your last comment. It’s incoherent. All I got from it was you think women are cunts. So again, I’m out.
@griffinstorme, if someone is a biological male, unaltered by surgery or SRS, and they identify as female, and the expectation is that they are referred to as female, then that is prioritizing the feeling of self identification over the objective reality that this person isn’t female.
I do not need to define what biological sex is to be able to recognize male and female. This is a ludicrous argument. I also do not need to define gender. Sex as a biological phenomenon is not vague at all, and I have no idea where you get off injecting this idea into the debate. Anthropology has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue.
If I meet a person who looks like a woman, talks like a woman, acts like a woman, dresses like a woman, and identifies as a woman, it’s none of my business what’s actually between her legs unless I’m in an intimidate relationship with her, and so I’ll refer to her as female. However, if I meet a person who looks like a man, talks like a man, acts like a man, but dresses
and identifies as a woman, I’m not going to refer to them as a woman. Perhaps that’s rude, but it’s far, FAR more rude to demand that I tailor my speech to assuage the feelings of a delusional person who thinks they can change their sex by cross dressing and wishing really hard.
If you think that gender is vague, you’re wrong. If you think that biological sex is vague, you’re wrong. If you think that language and concepts have no link, you’re wrong. If you think that pressuring people to abandon their principles and simply obey, then you’re not just wrong, you’re also an immoral person.
Let’s see how the kelly blue book evaluates that
The self identification is true if it's applied to the words, rather than the piece they are written on.
HI HO SILVER