Christmas = Christ mass celebrating the birth of Christ (yes, he was not born on December 25th) it DISPLACED a pagan holiday. It is NOT a version of a pagan holiday. Big and obvious difference.
@jaski, I'm gonna tell him...
@ShinkirouKnight, do it.
@jaski, I hear people say Jesus couldn’t have been born during the Winter Solstice or whatever because the shepherds wouldn’t have been tending their sheep in the winter. But I recently heard that it was entirely possible. Something to do with what the winter climates were like in Bethlehem and the breed of sheep (can’t remember what type they raise) but it had something to do with their mating cycles or something. Long story short, it’s still possible the Catholics were correct giving Jesus the December birthday.
@Snarfel Burger, possible. Exact Date is not really important though. The fact that someone claiming to be God doing what he did and saying what he said would have and should have been dismissed as a lunatic. Instead, hundreds went to their death claiming they saw him rise again and that he was Christ. He was a liar, a lunatic, or pure evil. He could not have been just a religious teacher/leader. Fun fact: the sheep that were tended were supposedly the ones for temple sacrifice. Fitting that shepherds of these sheep were called to the Lamb of God’s birth who would die for sins like the sheep.
@jaski, read KaptainKill's comment below because your original comment isnt completely wrong but inaccurate to a degree.
also I dont have a dog in this fight as I just enjoy the holiday as a time to see my family and enjoy eachother we dont do anything religious or at least dont consider it religious just tradition.
@Runnin with scissors, agree with that statement. They’re not mutually exclusive. They’re the same.
@jaski, the use of a tree is a pagan thing.
@Albatraous, the core of Christmas symbol is not a tree. It’s the star of Bethlehem and the nativity.
@jaski, it was previously a pagan celebration of the winter solstice. Christians appropriated it and stuck the star on top of the tree. Not really the core when it's based on something else
@Albatraous, can you elaborate? How was the star exclusively for pagans?
@jaski, I never said that. The celebration itself, such as the tree and time of year were pagan, then used by Christians. It is now considered a Christian holiday, but it didnt just get created for them, it is based on another culture's traditions.
@Albatraous, that sounds very similar to my original post. 🤔🙂
@jaski, Not sure what your response about “Jesus should have been dismissed as a lunatic” (which he was, hence the crucifixion) has to do with the Christmas tradition conversation?
Either way, you left off one of the options. Jesus could have been a “lunatic, a liar...” or Lord. Those are the three options people usually go with. Some people add “legend” into there, but that one has the least amount of support.
@jaski, Same thing happened with the Irish pagan holiday that became All Hallows’ Eve, it got replaced
@Snarfel Burger, have you ever seen the calendar format change and an entire people group change the day of worship in the week as well as die as martyrs for a legend?
@jaski, found the rabbi
@jaski, I think we might agree with eachother Lol. I don’t think Christ was a legend. I was merely saying the options we have when looking at Jesus.
He was either a legend, a lunatic, a liar, or the Lord. Obviously, from my perspective, i’m convinced He is the Lord.
@jaski, you are absolutely right. The deaths of so many people over the many years rests on the shoulders of a man who didn't kill anybody, and didn't tell anyone else to kill anybody. Not on those of monsters who said Jesus was a (what was it YOU said) liar, lunatic, pure evil. And anyone who follows him should be imprisoned, tortured, burned, hung, butchered, and killed for SPORT!
@Grandvault, thank you
@Grandvault, so much hostility directed at all the sins of Christianity. Fair. What happened if you directed your equal moral hostility towards every other group such as atheists, Muslims, communists, nationalists, racists? Do not exclude yourself either as you are clear of evil in your heart like me. Judge if you will but judge consistently or you can withhold your hostility and humbly see that we are all depraved.
Most of the traditions that we recognize as Christmas come from Yule, a pagan celebration of the winter solstice.
Tonight is Krampuslauf! Hide your bad kids if you don't want them dragged into the underworld.
Fir trees, yule logs, mistletoe, holly, reindeer -- these are all things that did not exist in the Middle East at the supposed birth of the Jesus character in Christian mythology. They were all obviously all taken from pagan Roman, Germanic, Celtic, and Gaelic traditions.
As stayed by others, it was easier to trick people into becoming Christians by incorporating their own traditions and beliefs, even by demonizing them. e.g. the Christian image of Satan was most likely based on a pagan god, probably Pan, the Satyr.
@Lightbringer, and why was it Pan? Why the pitchfork? Because Pan and Poseidon were among the favorites so you HAD to demonize them first.
@Lightbringer, or, Or, OR... As pagan cultures converted to Christianity, they brought some of their traditions with them. (That’s true even to today). You can go all over the world and see different cultures celebrating the birth of Christ with their own distinct flavors.
Romans 14: 5-6
“One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.”
@Snarfel Burger, Sure, that's a possibly that they were permitted to incorporate their own traditions. This supports the argument that the holiday traditions do not exclusively belong to Christians, and we're based on pagan ones. They just twist them around and take credit.
Your bible quote demonstrates this. They make the unfounded and narcissistic claim that anyone who observes a "special day" is worshipping the Christian god, when they were most likely celebrating other, unrelated things: their own gods, the harvest, the sun, etc.
It's like making the claim that everyone who takes a public holiday off work is a Democrat.
@Lightbringer, I didn’t deny that there are pagan traditions in Christmas... and Easter... and Halloween, etc. I’m saying that you’re pretending Christians just committed “cultural appropriation”. I’m saying those traditions likely came from the mixing of different cultures into the religion of Christianity. No one thinks Christians stole Coca-Cola and made it part of Christmas. It was a corporate thing (part of American culture) that joined the Christmas tradition.
You are completely misinterpreting that Bible passage. Paul was not saying, “anyone who observes a special day is worshipping the Christian God”. He was specifically telling jews and gentiles (who became Christians) not to judge one another for their different holy days if they were convinced they were celebrating them in the name of the Lord.
I.e. you can burn a Yule log on the fire in honor of the birth of Christ. You’re no longer permitted to burn that yule log to honor Odin.
@Snarfel Burger, Yes, maybe I'm missing some context around that quote, but that quote on its own certainly does sound very general, appears to postulate that _anyone_ that celebrates a holiday does so for the Christian god.
The main difference today is that we can burn a Yule log to honor Odin without being thrown in the fire right along with it.
Coca-Cola and Christmas is a completely different context. It's marketing, not cultural appropriation. Nobody worships Coca-Cola.
A more accurate example might be Chriatians celebrating Ganesh Chaturthi, and telling the Hindus that Ganesh is actually another face of the Judeo-Christian god.
@Lightbringer, I’m not really following your line of thinking.
Paul was writing to the Church in Rome in that passage. (i.e. to Christians). I cited that quote because there is nothing wrong with Christians following pagan traditions if those traditions are done to honor the Lord. Obviously, if the pagan tradition in question goes against scriptural teachings, then Christians should not do it. I’m sure I don’t need to give examples.
Yes, tying Coca-cola in with Christmas is a marketing tool. But if corporate marketing is not a very culturally American tradition, then I don’t know what is. And define “worship”, i’ve seen people line their entire houses with holy Coca-cola relics (branding).
That’s somewhat tongue and cheek. My point is, Christmas is very VERY different in different parts of the world. Saying Christians are stealing different cultures traditions is not the full picture.
@Snarfel Burger, I understand the perspective that "as long as it's honoring the Christian god, it's OK to keep following your pagan traditions". What I was taking issue with is the arrogance by which the early Christians went about the (forced) conversion of non-Christians, i.e. _permitting_ pagan traditions to continue, as if it was their right to decide what was permitted or not, and which imaginary being people had to honor.
So if Paul was preaching to the proverbial choir, then fine. No issues.
@Lightbringer, I mean, other than Hinduism, I don’t know of any other religions that would “permit” you to keep the traditions of your former religion. I don’t think it’s “arrogant” of Christianity to not allow you to worship other Gods. What’s the point of your religion if even your own religion doesn’t think its necessary to follow said religion exclusively. I can definitely see how Christianity would see some pagan traditions as sacrilege or blasphemous. Just like pagan religions would see things about Christianity the same way.
“Forced” conversion is not real conversion by any stretch of the imagination. So I would definitely agree with you that a lot of the Church of the middle ages had become apostate and should NOT have gone about “forcing” peoples to convert. BUT once someone has converted (willingly) obviously they should throw off their old ways and follow the tenets of Christianity. Which I imagine they would want to anyway, if they’ve willingly converted.
Yes, Christmas is not a pagan holiday. It displaced a pagan holiday. However, people will often celebrate with pagan related traditions.
@thatoneguymaybe, as the freedom of religion in this country allows! Love the ability to choose.
@jaski, I love this country, for its roots, and it's ideals. I hate what they are turning our country into.
Freedom of religion is even being infringed these days.
@thatoneguymaybe, agree with you.
@thatoneguymaybe, as is freedom _from_ religion. However, it is encouraging that more people are identifying as "non religious".
@Lightbringer, curious why it is encouraging to you that more are “non religious”? Based on your personal experience or do you mean that objectively speaking, religion is detriment to humanity?
@jaski, Specifically, that religion is a huge detriment to humanity. It's the world's oldest grift. It conditions credulity in people-- belief in things without evidence, and to tenaciously cling to those beliefs in spite of strong, and overwhelming evidence against them. This mentality leads to exactly what happened on Jan 6, and continues to be happening with those who contiue to believe in QAnon and the Big Lie.
We need to be better than this.
Christmas celebrations were banned in the original colonies, with strict punishment. The Christmas we celebrate in America today didn't really start up until the immigration of the 1800's when Europeans brought their traditions over.
Genuine question. What part of christmas is pagan? Even Santa was based on a normal human who just gave gifts to people.
@Sharts Galore , I think bringing trees indoors to ward off spirits. If I'm remembering correctly.
@Sharts Galore , Christmas replaced the Roman (pagan) holiday of Saturnalia. The Romans did that with a lot of existing holidays to make the transition into catholicism easier. Most Bible scholars put the birth of Jesus around April, not December.
@Sharts Galore , the star on top of the tree is Christian. But the account says it seemed more interested in having baby Jesus killed.. so idk y people keep inviting it to Jesus birthday every year. Seems a bit distasteful.
@Sharts Galore , ty for the comments. I figured there were odd ball pagan things implemented in there but I didnt know what they were
@undeadpuns, the star? What are you saying
@Sharts Galore , im probably wrong here, but i think santa was based off st. Nicholas who gave away his personal belongings to those less fortunate.
@HammerOfHeretics, little thing that goes atop the tree
@MMSieBreeze, lol no I mean about having baby Jesus killed
The tradition of the Christmas tree was a German guy (probably drunk) wanting to preserve a bit of nature during the winter and bringing a tree inside idk if he was pagan or not
“Shhh, don’t tell him yet. Let’s watch him first.”