RustyFapwagon v Ostrich Thief
@SimonPetrikov, I like how they are arguing/debating over a topic without calling each other's names or cussing. It shows that yes these people are bound to argue but also because of the wonderful community we have they don't fight.
@NameyMcNameFace, To be fair, 1 in 20,000 people argue without swearing at each other on Funny Pics.
I think It's fair to say
This debate has always been weird. If a dude thinks he's a woman, society treats him as brave tells him "cut off your penis, you go girl!" But if the same someone identifies with a different race or somerhing, they're crazy. Seems arbitrary.
So in conclusion:
-prenatal hormones and chemicals impact the brain
-those with conditions prohibiting or resulting in excessive production of the opposite sex hormones results in more likely identifying with the opposite gender to their xx/xy configuration
Therefore it is likely high opposite sex hormone rates in the womb affect brain development and likely play a large role in creating a brain partially growing as the opposite gender would and therefore likely to continue to transgenderism.
@Ostrich Thief, the brain isn't gender specific the brain isn't male or female that's just an old myth
@Ostrich Thief, I'm just going to put this right here.
@Wakeley, -someome that hasn't ever seen a brain scan or looked at the IQ differences between men and women
Men and women have very different brain structures and they operate different. Men have higher IQ on average and men that are the same height as women have larger brains
@RustyFapwagon, but the point is that they are not constructed differently they aren't "wired" differently they develop the same and they act the same thinking you're a woman when you're a man has nothing to do with you having a "woman's" brain
@Wakeley, I suppose that's correct. But they operate so differently it's almost like a separate thing. The difference in size, IQ and brain activity demonstrates that very clearly. You could then say that a person has a "woman's" brain since the way they function is quite different.
@Ostrich Thief, So, we've established that an abnormality in hormone exposure causes a higher incidence in this thinking. Since the cause is abnormal, and since the result doesn't happen 100% of the time, doesn't that make it an abnormality? Or, say, a congenital disorder?
@Ostrich Thief, when my mother was pregnant with me, she experienced heavy bleeding, but the blood was not hers. From that, and a few other things (that I will not be sharing), I highly suspect that I had a twin who I absorbed during the early stages of development. I also have reason to suspect that twin was a female fraternal twin.
I genuinely think that may be a root cause of some of my personal identity issues.
1 gender, women are objects
But but biologically there is 3 (hermaphrodite)
@Upset Napkin, There are 3 sexes in humans, I think. Gender refers to social constructs of what each sex should do.
@SimonPetrikov, I know I just hate how a word which meant simply your biological sense was confused with the word personality.
@SimonPetrikov, gender is the same thing as sex. The definition was very recently changed when people started trying to pretend gender dissociative disorder wasn't a mental illness.
@RustyFapwagon, my thing is, why does it matter? Like, trans people will never impact you negatively. There is no non-religious argument against trans people. No rational logical argument why it matters
@Ostrich Thief, how about that they kill themselves like crazy because of their mental disorder and I want to help them live normal lives without their disorder.
Sound rational or should we just let them kill themselves?
@RustyFapwagon, nah man I totally am 10099% in support of getting people the help they need. But there is no treatment other than transitioning that has been found which has been more than marginally successful. If there was then it would be getting implemented right now and treated like any other mental disorder. It's not treatable like them because it's not the same
It's not that it isn't an abnormality of the brain, but it's just semantically not classifiable as a mental disorder. It's a brain thing totally, I'm with you there. Prenatal hormones and all that Jazz. But it's like a physical brain structural difference, not a brain chemical difference like anxiety and depression and schizophrenia. It's more akin to neurological disorders really; physical brain structure differences. Semantics really. My main point is, trans people don't want to be trans, and they just want to be happy and not experience dysphoria every single day and wanna die.
People will then claim that gender is
@Ostrich Thief, completely unmovable and that there are no glitches in the system that can cause people to be wired partially or mostly to be more like the opposite sex. Clearly that happens, so why deny that and claim that being transgender is simply a choice or is a delusion? Gender is in the brain, sex is the body. That's just how the words are currently being interpreted.
@Ostrich Thief, actually there is no difference in the brain at all until hormones are taken. Also the suicide rate has actually been shown to increase or stay the same, but it doesn't go down. It is treatable and it is actually very closely linked to depression. Know how I know that? Because it used to be classified as a mental disorder and it was treated successfully.
@RustyFapwagon, conversion therapy for trans people just straight up doesn't work. It causes increased suicide rates. There's just no way for them to live "normal lives" without either transitioning or suppressing themselves and falling deep into depression
@Ostrich Thief, nope. When it's treated similarly to depression, because that's what it is, I helps dramatically.
You understand it is genetically impossible to be born in the "wrong body" don't you?
@RustyFapwagon, if you suddenly woke up and were female but had your brain, wouldn't you feel out of place and find it extremely taxing to have to fake yourself and act female every day? Wouldn't you want to act like a male still? Would it not be weird for you to look down and not see a penis?
Because that's what it's like for trans people, and we should understand that's why they struggle and have the high suicide rates. People can't act 100% of the time or it damages them
@Ostrich Thief, that's not how it works. It's a mental disorder. If I suddenly woke up and wanted to chop part of my body off of go to the hospital because that'd be a pretty obvious sign that I had something mentally wrong with me.
They kill themselves because they have a mental disorder that isn't treated, but instead is paraded around and encouraged like it's normal.
@RustyFapwagon, did you read anything I just said?
@RustyFapwagon, show me a single piece of evidence that says being trans is a delusion and that it can be treated like a mental disorder with therapy.
@Ostrich Thief, yes. If I wanted to have my now vag closed and tits removed, guess what, same difference. It's genetically impossible. It's a mental disorder. Chopping off or adding body parts doesn't make it better, hormones don't make it better, it's still a mental disorder.
@RustyFapwagon, their brain structure is physically different since birth man.
@Ostrich Thief, nope. Only after the introduction of hormones.
@RustyFapwagon, *all of your responses just started rolling in and I didn't see them btw
@RustyFapwagon, is there a study that says through traditional forms of therapy it is treatable? I haven't ever read one if so and would be very willing to look at it
@Ostrich Thief, here's an excerpt referencing two studies that show massive regret after the fact and persistence of mental disorders after "transition"
The study commissioned by The Guardian of the UK in 2004 reviewed 100 studies and found 20 percent regret. Consider the findings of a 2011 Swedish study (not the study Ms. Costello used) published seven years after the 2004 UK review. It looked at mortality and morbidity after gender reassignment surgery and found that people who changed genders had a higher risk of suicide. In this study, all the sex-reassigned persons in Sweden from 1973–2003 (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) were compared to a comparable random control group. The sex-reassigned persons had substantially higher rates of death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, and substantially higher rates of attempted suicide….Gender surgery is not effective treatment for depression, anxiety or mental disorders.
@Ostrich Thief, people who transition have lower suicide rates though. Only one Swedish study showed it as otherwise and hasn't been replicated successfully.
Your claim is basically these people are suffering from depression and anxiety and etc. and their transgender feelings are a result of those disorders, whereas my claim is that the transgenderness causes the disorders.
I have yet to see a study that corroborates your claim, but i am always open to new unbiased data
@RustyFapwagon, the thing you gotta keep in mind is those who never come out as transgender just show up in suicide statistics as normal cis people and it's hard to compare the rates of suicide of post transition trans people and pre transition trans people. One variable is unknown
Do you have any evidence non transitioning therapy has any legitimate success rate?
@Ostrich Thief, I'll try to find it when I get home. I wrote a paper on it a few years ago.
I'll find you stuff that proves the other side
@RustyFapwagon, so what I'm finding is that if people have accepting family and close friends and are treated for the depression and anxiety the results are substantially more positive than not transition. When people have unsupportive families and friends though the suicide rates are pretty bad.
I cannot find anything that says not transitioning and just treating the anxiety and depression alleviates their dysphoria and fixes the depression and anxiety like it should if it is just those two conditions causing the problem
@Ostrich Thief, from an article from scientificamerican which is a credible source, "results showed that even before treatment the brain structures of trans people were more similar in some respects to the brains of their experienced gender than those of their natal gender...trans people had brains that are different from males and females, a unique kind of brain...it's not because they have a male brain but a transsexual brain...they found that in response to androstadienone, an odorous steroid with pheromonelike properties known to cause different response in men versus women that the adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria's brains responded much like the peers of their experienced gender"
There are is more support by the science community that it is a brain thing and not simply a choice. Environment definitely likely plays a factor too, but it has a significant genetic component to it.
@Ostrich Thief, @RustyFapwagon , some people just will never get the point.
@Ostrich Thief, @RustyFapwagon, thanks for way you conducted your discussion! The world needs more debates like this. You guys differ from opinion but presented your case with mutual respect. The downvoters are showing what is wrong with the world...
@Ostrich Thief, if "transgenderedness causes disorders," wouldn't that make it a disorder by definition?
@Ostrich Thief, not to butt in, but gender dysphoria or whatever they called it can be treated with cognitive therapy.
Cognitive therapy reworks the way you think about things from the ground up and is a proactive and healthy thing to do and learn, as it can apply to literally anything related to thoughts. People can no longer get cognitive therapy to work around themselves and learn to love themselves as tey are because this is no longer diagnosable as a mental disorder because of lobbying from SJWs and PC culture.
Even if you disagree with it being a mental disorder, disallowing it to be classified as one has actively hurt trans people because it has taken away a route that they could have used to better live their lives.
@Not Actually a Corgi, the problem is that there is no evidence cognitive therapy alone can cure transgender feelings in these people. It can make them less depressed and anxious, but the gender dysphoria cannot be cured away.
@Ostrich Thief, I have a sexual paraphilia (a sexual fetish). This has caused me significant distress over the years; I even developed an irrational fear because of this fetish, and said fear could have significantly hurt relationships by harming trust and reinforcing negative behavior.
When I was introduced to cognitive therapy as a treatment for my negative ideation and anxiety (virtually unrelated to the fetish) I applied it to my sexual identity and my sexuality.
The fetish no longer torments me nearly as much as it did before. I still have the fetish, and it sometimes still bothers me, but I can safely discuss it with anyone and the irrational fear has all but gone away.
@Ostrich Thief, I don't understand why you're being downvoted so much. So many people dismiss transgenderism and transsexualism as either perversion or insanity. It's not.
I myself am trans, although I have not even begun transitioning (and don't know if I ever will). If I could choose to become comfortable in my own body that would be much more preferable than changing my body. The technology for gender reassignment is still very much in its infancy. I'm very much of the attitude that the reason why suicide rates for post transition is what it is is because the process isn't complete and some people cannot handle that.
An mtf trans doesn't want to be a surgically altered man, they want to be a woman. And surgery can only change so much right now.
@I Are Lebo, i don't even know man, I'm just trying to have a dialogue here. People see something they disagree with and downvote regardless of anything else.
People feel repulsed by the idea of transgender people for some reason, and they want to justify that feeling and feel like it's the trans people's fault so they don't feel in the wrong. It's easier to just say "oh they're crazy and want to chop their dick off. That's something a crazy person would do." than to change their whole worldview on the issue. Gotta love dat cognitive dissonance👍🏼
@Not Actually a Corgi, I don't mean to say that sexual paraphilia and transgender feelings are the same, but I have personal experience applying cognitive therapy to my own life in regards to a fetish. It's still there, but it is no longer considered a problem; I have rewired my negative feelings about it to feed into positive ones. Trans people can rewire their negative thoughts to be positive and therefore treat most if not all of the problem. They might still feel trans, but it won't be a problem for them, and that's what's vital.
I completely understand the fact that trans feelings and sexual paraphilias are very, very different things. But trans feelings and sexual paraphilias are both wired into the brain and are virtually irremovable. I'm not trans myself, but I'd estimate that trans people would have as much trouble getting rid of their feelings as I do getting rid of my paraphilias.
Ergo, they probably can't, despite wanting to and doing everything they can think of to try.
@Not Actually a Corgi, I've tried cognitive behaviour therapy myself, and it was entirely ineffective. However, I'm not gender dysphoric. I'm not a woman in a man's body, but since childhood I've wanted to be female and found it nearly impossible to get rid of those feelings. It's more of an obsession than anything else.
I'm getting a referral from my family physician to talk to a professional about it. My worry is that I won't live for another two years if I continue trying to just ignore my feelings or bury them.
@I Are Lebo, I will concede that cognitive therapy is not easy to do for everyone. I'm not trans but I have trust issues so bad that there were times I skipped dinner as a kid because I was certain my parents had poisoned it. When it fvcked with my last relationship, I finally decided to seek help. My therapist recommended cognitive therapy to rewire my negative ideation and work from the ground up to reform my thought processes to be more positive and healthy.
I've made little progress but I'm already seeing huge changes in my social life and mental health. I no longer fear that my friends are going to kill me, I don't worry about my ex trying to hurt me out of spite, and I no longer fear my family. I still have a long way to go and I expect to be doing this for another 2-4 years before I reform enough to no longer need it, but the progress, however slow, is seriously making my life better and I'm happier than I ever have been.
But this rate and difficulty isn't easy, for sure.
@Not Actually a Corgi, and again, as before, my efforts to rewire myself and stay positive have changed my sexuality as well; I was insecure af and constantly had a nagging irrational fear at the back of my mind, but once I decided to change how I thought about the situation and build a new way to think about myself, I've been doing a lot better with the parts of my sexuality that were giving me trouble before.
But I'll reiterate: it is not easy to completely change your mindset, especially if you've formed kinds of mental blocks like so many people have. I was blessed with someone who melted through my mental shells and touched me so easily when nobody else could even get close. Not everyone has someone come in, drag them out of the black mire that is depression, and then leave them on the shore scrambling for some sense of direction. I chose to try something new and walk away from the bog I had come out of, but not everyone is as ready as I was. I understand that.
@Not Actually a Corgi, I appreciate the responses.
The thing is, sexual fetishes, as awful and debilitating as they are, occupy only one sector of who we are, the sexual portion. Trans people have to straight up be an actor every day to appear male or female to everyone and it's so difficult to do that they would rather transition so they didn't have to pretend to behave like a different person. Transgenderism basically is a set of two different types of dysphoria; social dysphoria and body dysphoria. The body dysphoria I would say is more like your situation, constantly being thought of all the time and it's disturbing and causes depression and guilt and fear and anxiety and stuff, but the social dysphoria is something that can't really be treated in the same way. It's like hiding the entirety of who you are everyday and no amount of therapy can really make that much easier. I have yet to ever read a study that said being transgender can be significantly helped through cognitive thera
@Ostrich Thief, therapy alone
@Ostrich Thief, I understand completely that trans people have a more integrated difficulty than people with a bad paraphilia, but my point was that, while it may not go away, I believe transgender people would be better off using cognitive therapy to make their minds change to reflect themselves positively rather than to transition and take the risks of destroying any way back and a lot of things for themselves in the future (like naturally having children) just to have a chance at feeling like they're in the right body.
The mind is easier to change than the body and recovers better from this kind of thing, especially because with the proper help and methods, you're healing it from the start of the therapy, rather than chancing conplications and needing a lengthy healing and adjustment process.
@Not Actually a Corgi, basically, I'm saying that therapy is less trouble in every way (save for maybe time) and, when properly executed and stuck to, has a better overall payoff with more body acceptance and less health complications.
I just don't like the idea of transitioning because it has so many problems that, when all stacked up, are worse for the trans person overall than the trans feelings themselves, because they are more expensive and they directly threaten their health. Comfort, while certainly important in its own right, is not as important as making sure someone is healthy and safe.
@Not Actually a Corgi, I respectfully disagree with the idea transitioning is worse for the trans person overall. I think it depends a lot on how trans you are if that makes sense. People that are at the lower end of the trans spectrum like non-binary people and what not might potentially have more problems transitioning than staying as they are, and perhaps these people would be able to cope and learn to come to accept themselves as they are and still be happy, but I think for the very very transgender people transitioning is better for them psychologically than just therapy alone. I totally understand where you're coming from though, and I definitely think all people questioning gender should go to therapy for a very long time before deciding to transition.
@Not Actually a Corgi, there is just no evidence cognitive therapy alone is more effective than transitioning in terms of long term psychological health of transgender individuals. Most go to therapy for yearssssss before transitioning and only transition because therapy isn't enough
@Ostrich Thief, I'll agree with you on the fact that people need to go to therapy for a long while and heavily consider their transition if they do want to make that decision. I'm glad I could finally have discourse with someone on this issue without being called a bigot of some sort. It's refreshing, and I thank you.
I'll take this as an opportunity to leave this conversation, as I've said my piece and I think we've come to a nice conclusion here. I personally hadn't thought of it that way before, so it's an interesting point of view to consider. I'll certainly think about that point of view from now on when discussing this issue.
@Not Actually a Corgi, This is how debate should be done my friend, thank you for your respectful and thoughtful responses it is highly appreciated. Good luck with all of your struggles 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
@Ostrich Thief, you too, friendo! I only wish more people were open to having ideas challenged and then subsequently defending them with rational points and discussion. Would certainly make the world a more fun place.
@Not Actually a Corgi, for fvcking real man. People are more concerned with feeling justified and right about whatever belief they currently hold than with wanting to believe the thing that is most correct
@Smurf309fs, why is it wrong to have a different opinion?
@CynicalSir, It isn't wrong, in fact it is healthy to hear different opinions. As long as you take time to read and digest them.
@Smurf309fs, ok, but that doesn't mean that people who downvoted didnt.
@CynicalSir, it kinda does. They are not partaking in the discussion, they are not bringing arguments, they are not adding any value to the debate. It is a negative way of trying to discourage one debater. The equivalent of the one shouting 'boo' in an audience.
@Smurf309fs, that doesn't mean they didn't read and and digest. I read and understand anything I up or downvote. Most of the time I don't reply because I don't have anything to add that will be helpful, I simply know 100% that I agree or disagree. Other times I may not reply because I don't want a major argument to ensue over a simple opinion. The volatility is high many times.
@Not Actually a Corgi, Cognitive therapy doesn't always work. I have bipolar disorder, have been in an out of hospitals, and over ten years of medication and therapy the best I can do is pretend in public, and prolonged my mood swings. I was forced into a DBT program or they wouldn't let me go back to work. It was like a school, with over 50 people and different classes depending on what mental disorder you had. Some of the people there never get better, they keep going because it becomes a support group and a crutch they can rely on.
@Not Actually a Corgi, I've struggled with simply finding someone to help me. Most of the psychologists or psychiatrists I've had in my adult life have basically just said that they don't have the resources or experience to help with my particular problem, and basically wrote me off.
I don't understand why people fight about this when multiple genders have existed in societies before. It's literally possible, it's just not something we recognize in our culture.
@HolyCatchphrase, I think a lot of people fight because it's more and more accepted as normal behavior when it's a disorder.
@CynicalSir, lots of people have some kind of disorder. Things like that aren't generally curable. People just have to find ways of living with them.
@HolyCatchphrase, of course they do.
What is your argument for "it is impossible to be born with an incongruent gender identity with sex"
@Ostrich Thief, genetic structure is my argument. It is impossible genetically.
@RustyFapwagon, but then how do you explain xy women with androgen insensitivity syndrome? If it's all to do with xy chromosomes why would they not feel uncomfortable with being female?
@Ostrich Thief, you understand that is an extremely rare genetic disorder right? That's like saying because hermaphrodites exist, everyone that wants to chop their djck off isn't crazy.
@RustyFapwagon, nah, I'm just saying it's an example of xy people who never identify as male because they don't feel male because their hormones weren't geared to make them male in the womb
@Ostrich Thief, because they have a really really rare disorder that doesn't occur regularly at all.
@RustyFapwagon, it's not thattt rare though. It happens about 1 in 20,000 genetic xy people.
By the logic gender is all to do with having that Y chromosome and not to do with prenatal hormones, these people shouldn't want to continue to be female and behave as female all of their life and childhood
@Ostrich Thief, it is thay rare. And it's recognized properly as a disorder and treated.
You also understand that transgender people make up less than half a percentage point of the population.
@RustyFapwagon, AID isn't treated though really, they just live life but can't get pregnant or anything
@Ostrich Thief, if there is any mental development problem it is.
@RustyFapwagon, I understand that, but I've got two close trans friends and know this isn't something they wanted
And they would've done something different if it would've helped them
But other forms of therapy just straight up don't work
@Ostrich Thief, yes they do. Your friends disease is paraded around. They're told it's normal to want to drastically alter their body because they feel like it. It's a disorder.
@RustyFapwagon, do you understand what AID is?
@Ostrich Thief, yes
@RustyFapwagon, In your view then, should they identify as male?
@Ostrich Thief, regarding that situation that affects about .000005% of women? Gee idk I guess that really shows you how normal that is.
@RustyFapwagon, but that is an example of exactly what should be the proving of your hypothesis; if it's just that Y chromosome and not the prenatal hormones corrupting the brain and making it display more masculine or feminized then people with AID should be trying to identify as male.
There is a social component too, but if one were to argue it's just the upbringing that makes them female then that would mean gender is a social construction with no basis in genetics. It's a combo of the both, but it isn't a choice either way
@Ostrich Thief, my point is, the fact that people with AID overwhelmingly identify as female proves that it isn't just the Y chromosome. And your only counter argument is that it's rare so it doesn't count but that doesn't make sense.
@RustyFapwagon, additionally, xx women with hyperandrogenis, genetically excessive androgens in their system, become transgender eventually at a rate higher than the regular female population. This further indicates that hormones in the womb likely change the brain and make it more masculinized or feminized and result in a person more inclined to be transgender
@Ostrich Thief, you understand again that is am extremely rare genetic abnormality that makes it so that the individual cannot reproduce? There is no social construct. People without extremely rare genetic disorders are either male or female. If the decide that their genetics are wrong, they still aren't wrong. They just have a mental disorder telling them that the science and biology that makes them what they are is incorrect kind of like a person that has decided they're a fox or a cat.
@RustyFapwagon, but logically, if it is just the Y chromosome that should determine male behavior, people with AID should behave like males all their life. They don't though. Hormones, brain structure, and socialization all play a part in making them behave as female. Makes and females are almost genetically identical, and our bodies the ability to respond to the hormones of the opposite sex and begin developing those secondary sex characteristics if they are there in high doses. Our bodies react to hormones. In the womb if we are exposed to excessive hormones of the opposite sex, it would result in a more masculine or feminine person. Why do you think that is not possible?
@Ostrich Thief, do you know what happens when a male body produces insufficient levels of testosterone? Extreme levels of depression, suicidal thoughts, etc. Your body will respond to anthrax too. Doesn't mean it's good for it or natural.
@Ostrich Thief, what I'm saying is that it's like experimental data, looking at regular males as the control, and looking st women with AID as the experimental group. The dependent variable is the amount of androgens in their system (and female socialization). This proves the hormones play a part in developing the brain as male or female. And then st that point it is no stretch to guess that if we are subjected to(or not subjected to enough of) these hormones while developing we could develop a brain with altered masculine or feminine traits. It's nothing like being a cat or a fox because there is no situation in development where a human can become a foxinized or catified.
@Ostrich Thief, but it can be feminized or masculinized. All I'm saying is the brain can be altered with these hormones too. And we know chemicals and hormones can significantly and permanently impact the brain of a fetus for the rest of its life. Therefore it makes perfect sense that being transgender is the result of (at least largely) excessive male or female hormones in the womb.
@RustyFapwagon, ok, so male brains without enough testosterone. They get depression and anxiety. Trans men who don't transition; what happens when they don't have testosterone coursing through their body? Depression and anxiety too. If anything that point further shows it's related to brain structure
@RustyFapwagon, what I'm saying in regards to your body responding to the different gendered hormones is that they are already wired to develop when they are present independent of your having a Y chromosome or not. And there's no reason the brain should be any different.
@Ostrich Thief, wait. So you think The thing to do to combat anxiety and depression is to remove a vital hormone from someone's body that it is dependant on even though that causes anxiety and depression.
Well I'm sold.
@Ostrich Thief, unless you're talking about women. They do transition better then men, until you factor in the insanely high levels of spousal abuse
@RustyFapwagon, what? That's not what I'm saying at all. Do you not agree with my logic trail I just laid out? If you don't why do you disagree? Why do you believe prenatal hormones do not impact the permanent brain structure in terms of becoming masculinized or feminized?
@Ostrich Thief, of course i believe that. But that is also determined by genetics. This is why people with the extremely rare genetic disorder that you feel is relevant act like women.
@RustyFapwagon, it's genetic! There you go man that's fvcking right it's genetics.
So if a masculine/feminized brain is genetic and impacted by the hormones they've got in their brain why do you not believe trans people received higher/lower levels of hormones in utero and that that played a significant role in them feeling transgender?
@Ostrich Thief, that's currently science's best explanation as to why people are transgender
@Ostrich Thief, @RustyFapwagon, the AID women had a gene that suppressed response to testosterone. This meant their brain didn't absorb as much testosterone while in the womb either, hence why it makes sense for them to want to behave as female.
And if either someone had this condition partially, enough not to effect physical characteristics but enough to affect the vulnerable brain, OR if their mother simply produced excessive male/female hormones either direction while they were in there they would be effected.
So basically what it comes down to is you don't believe people's brains could be effected by excessive hormones in the womb or by more heightened sensitivity or insensitivity to them to the degree they display trans behavior. Why do you believe that?
@Ostrich Thief, but since you said you do believe male and female hormones in the womb can masculinize or feminized a brain, then why do you not believe it's at least likely or highly possible that trans people are at least partially predisposed to exhibit transgender behavior because of those prenatal brain impacts from hormones?
@Ostrich Thief, and if trans people are the result of a genetic/utero hormone exposure condition (not their fault) them it would make no sense to blame trans people for their feelings
@RustyFapwagon, so, If prenatal hormones can masculinize or feminize a brain regardless of the presence of a Y or second X chromosome, why do you believe this did not happen to some degree to trans people?
There is evidence trans brains shows masculine/feminization more than their cis members of their birth gender, and we agree masculinized or feminized brains affect how people express their gender as, so why do you think it is not(at least largely) a brain structure difference that makes trans people how they are?
if you made it this far you're too late... you're gay
@Ostrich Thief, I'm sorry to interrupt this debate, but you have the most calm, collected and articulate argument I've ever seen and I wanted to know that is was the most enjoyable thing to read and you're a great person
@Ostrich Thief, as a transgender, reading this made me feel very uncomfortable. As a child I l have always never understood why I felt like a boy but didn't have boy parts. When you start hormone treatment therapy. You talk to your doctor. He or she will then reference you to this psychologist. You go to a psychologist for months and talk about how you feel as if you're boy in a girls body. After the psychologist has approved that this is real and not a serious dissociative issue, you are then allowed to start hormone treatment.
@Ostrich Thief, because it's hormone based. If you have male genitalia you produce significantly more testosterone. If you don't, you don't. That's where those high levels of testosterone come from. So a person in that .000005% of individuals that you for some reason applies to everyone that is transgender, only has a ridiculously rare genetic disorder. If only they were permitted to choose their gender, we would essentially have no trannies at all and it'd be recognized as a mental disorder.
You're trying to normalize something using something that applies to no one.
@RustyFapwagon, i don't know much about the specifics of the topic which is why I never debate it, but if it was a mental disorder wouldn't psychologists classify it as one?
@Blue Shirted Guy, they did for a long time. It became politically incorrect to very recently (last 10 years or so) and we've seen a huge spike in suicides of people affected by the disorder.
@RustyFapwagon, so you don't believe that it's possible that in the womb if we are subjected to higher male or female hormones it could affect the brain and cause transgender behavior?
That's the bottom line?
Do you have anything to back that up?
Right now that's the most widely accepted guess in science so I'm curious why you don't think it's possible
@RustyFapwagon, that just doesn't seem correct to me. As razylum stated, they met with a psychologist for months. You think psychologists would just ignore what they feel to be the truth because of political correctness?
@Blue Shirted Guy, yes of course. You dont think that The medical industry has done things to conform to political pushes? That's been the case for generations. Take, for a recent example, Addyi. This drug was in testing stages for a long time. The FDA wouldn't approve it because it was dangerous and the side effects were drastic. There was a massive push from feminist groups and the left and it was passed by the FDA. Then all the issues the FDA said would happen, happened.
This is a regular occurance.
@Ostrich Thief, I didn't say it wasn't possible. I said It was extremely rare using the evidence YOU provided to back your claim and that it wasn't the case in most trans people. It'd be like saying that since simese twins can be born, anyone thay feels like they're two people should get two names, birth certificates, etc.
@RustyFapwagon, all I'm going for is for you to admit that it is possible there is a significant genetic component to all of this since these people often inexplicably experience these feelings since ages as young as 3 or 4. Will you at least admit that it is at least POSSIBLE that there is a very significant genetic hormonal component and that we shouldn't shut the door on it and assume trans people are just crazy and making dumb choices?
@RustyFapwagon, the reality is there is no black and white perfect evidence for the explanation of trans people quite yet, only some hypotheses. But I have yet to ever see any convincing evidence it is purely choice that prompts people to feel these feelings
@Ostrich Thief, we should recognize that someone wanting to drastically alter their body is very likely a mental disorder barring some incredibly rare genetic disorder. They aren't making dumb choices in the same way that someone with schizophrenia isn't making dumb choices. They have a mental problem. It should be addressed.
I wanted to be a dinosaur when I was 3. Good thing my parents didn't have all my teeth filed into points, a tail stitched on and my arms cut down to a foot long because I don't want to be one anymore.
@RustyFapwagon, the best piece of evidence we have so far is the brain scan stuff I was talking about earlier. There is little to no evidence though trans feelings can go away through cognitive therapy though and that it is their own fault for choosing to be unhappy and dysphoric.
I will totally admit that choice plays a role too to some degree, especially in some people more than others, but I find it hard to believe all trans people are the result of just up and deciding to want to switch genders
@Ostrich Thief, also it's not a "choice" in the same sense that someone being agoraphobic isn't a "choice." It's a mental problem they develop. Besides the people that are actively doing it for attention (and there are plenty of those too) it is a disorder.
@RustyFapwagon, but the amount of trans people that exist and the persistence of their existence across time seems to point to the idea that it is a result of genetics
@RustyFapwagon, so, how then should it be addressed if it is a delusional disorder like you think? Because gender dysphoria doesn't respond to the same drugs that are used to treat delusions and can't be successfully treated by cognitive therapy alone
@Ostrich Thief, not necessarily. There have always been people that self-cannibalized, been pedophilic, self-mutilated, etc. Is that genetic?
@RustyFapwagon, so, basically you agree it is a result of the brain. We've come to that consensus. You just think it should be classified as a disorder and treated in an attempt to make the dysphoria go away.
Right on that's cool if that worked.
Most trans people would love to therapy away their dysphoria, but most of them simply can't. They've been trying for decades and have never found a solution that helped these people feel better other than transition
@Ostrich Thief, there will be processes that can develop as we learn more about the disorder. We know that giving them hormones doesn't work, we know that them "transitioning" doesn't work. We need to address it as an illness.
@Ostrich Thief, that's not true though because they still kill themselves all the time after transition and a lot want to transition back after they've undergone a surgery. It doesn't work.
@RustyFapwagon, well depression and anxiety and schizophrenia all have genetic components. All of human behavior is either environment or genetics.
Even if it were classified as a mental disorder, it would be not a delusional disorder. These people are totally coherent and completely aware of how impractical the feelings are and they want them to go away.
Even if it were classified as a disorder, the current highest success treatment for it is transitioning because nothing else works, so why badger people for doing what makes them feel better?
@RustyFapwagon, that's not true though. Even at its worst statistic it was only a 20% rate of regret, much of which is likely attributed to not fitting into society because they didn't pass or because their family didn't approve. 95% of well supported trans people have no regret
@RustyFapwagon, virtually none of them want to detransition, and you would be pressed to find more than a small percentage who was someone with extreme dysphoria who detransitioned for the reason that they regretted it and hated their decision
@Ostrich Thief, that, plus the insanely high suicide rate even after transition, means that isn't a viable solution.
@RustyFapwagon, that 95% I've read somewhere but I don't remember where. I'll try to find it
@RustyFapwagon, but it's not higher than before transition
@RustyFapwagon, if transitioning increases suicide risk then psychologists would not be overwhelmingly recommending it
@RustyFapwagon, and the suicide risk after transition basically disappears if they have a supportive family
@Ostrich Thief, it's the knowing they'll never be accepted for who they are that makes them want to die, not the regret of transitioning
@Ostrich Thief, prove to me there is a form of therapy with a higher success rate than transitioning. If you can do that and prove there is something else better for these people and that all of the psych field is misguided, I'll totally reconsider.
@Ostrich Thief, the proof is in what you just said.
If someone knows they are something so much so that they are willing to permanently damage their reproductive organs and brain function then why would it matter what their family thought? That makes no sense.
@RustyFapwagon, "why would it matter what their family thought?" Wow. That's pretty important to a lot of people, you know.
@RustyFapwagon, because people need close healthy relationships to be happy
@Blue Shirted Guy, that is not proof. The reality is there is no therapy that is proven to be more effective at treating trans people other than transitioning to improve their quality of life.
@Ostrich Thief, did you respond to the wrong person by accident? I completely agree!
@RustyFapwagon, if you go onto transgender forums like susans.org you'll see story after story after story of people who were utterly depressed and on the verge of ending it all, but then transitioned and their whole life changed for the better. You would only find a small small small small percentage of people who regret transitioning and suddenly wish they had their penis or boobs back or off.
It's very obvious it helps the majority of them and makes them not feel horrible every day, so why discourage this course of treatment when there is no viable comparable alternative?
@Blue Shirted Guy, lol yeah
@Ostrich Thief, you still have yet to show me a shred of evidence there is a more effective treatment method for making these people feel happy and lose the dysphoria other than than transitioning. And that's because it doesn't exist. Most trans people didn't even want to transition and would give anything to be able to deal with it a less extreme way
@Ostrich Thief, chimyng in a little for a technical point. Forum posts is probably a poor source of evidence.
There are 2 main problems:
1. Its like reviews on amazon, only the really satisfied or very bad will take the time to write
2. It can lead to observation bias, it makes the assumption that all affected are on those boards. So you see 100 posts where the person is much better. But this ignores the 100 where it didn't work, and the 100 that worked, they just don't talk about it (using made up numbers)
But otherwise thumbs up to everyone having a civil conversation. I am almost flabergasted that can happen :]
@Honaw Fierceclaw, the thing is they have a detransition board on there, but it is barely used and the posts on it usually are from non-binary people who weren't totally sure if they should transition or from people who had just begun transition and decided it wasn't for them. Almost none of them are those who went full on transition including surgery and ended up going back. There are a couple, but the number of people doing that is staggeringly low compared to the amount of people satisfied with their decision. I understand it's not a valid and highly credibly source academically, but it proves that people can have very positive experiences transitioning and that it can change the lives for the better for at least most who decide to transition. Even if a third were unhappy with their result, 2/3rds would still benefit from treatment and we shouldn't claim it harms people to transition when for the most part it helps them
@RustyFapwagon, Please let me know if you get this. I'd like to ask your opinion on something.
@Jdrawer, just so you know you have to reply to a comment for someone to get a notification
@RustyFapwagon, I did not. Thanks!
@Jdrawer, do you have a question still?
@Ostrich Thief, Please let me know if you get this. I'd like to see your opinion on something.