I’d like it if we moved to the Swiss model of gun ownership, where everyone owns and is trained to keep their head on straight with guns, but I just don’t think it’d work in our culture.
@Captain Anderson, so I’ve been thinking a lot about things and I feel like it all boils down to responsibility. Throughout the history of this country up to a point, people had to assume an amount of responsibility for something they did. But now it’s just devolving into people who just blame others for their problems or ask for handouts or don’t want to actually make the change in themselves. My parents and grandparents all owned many guns. My dad taught all of us how to shoot but most importantly the need to respect the firearm and not to ever misuse it. But people who don’t know sometimes don’t seek the knowledge. Or those who do know, don’t teach others. Then they are surprised when something bad happens and want to blame someone else.
A kid gets bullied and shoots up a school. The bully has a minor amount of blame compared to the parents who failed to exercise responsible gun ownership, failed to teach the kid how to deal with problems properly or even just defend themselves.
@Captain Anderson, please tell me more about this, is this training just how to use a gun or evaluate the mentality of the person owning one?
@Richard Cypher, I believe responsibility only covers a couple of the issues related to gun deaths. A kid playing with a gun, taking it to school to show off is irresponsible on the parent and of course any adult who doesn’t respect the weapon and discharges it accidentally hurting/killing himself or someone else. However the situation with mass shootings is different, it doesn’t matter punishing the shooter because the damage was done and most of them kill them selves to avoid being arrested. Is it even possible to evaluate and check on a person mental being for the most part has committed no crimes or have a history of violence and secretly plans to commit a shooting and flies under the radar? We have no choice but to ASSUME most people who own guns are sane everyday and will continue to do in their life time. That in itself is the problem and I don’t think there is a solution.
@megamanx181x, that’s the problem. The idea of banning something because someone may suddenly, unexpectedly, and without prior indications do something bad with it is entirely against American values.
@Richard Cypher, never said banning but its interesting how tons of people immediately assume that’s what they think the solution is. This American culture will never allow it and in a perfect world that’s where it would work but it never will. To me I think those who own weapons need some kind of five year evaluation on the state of their mental health or have their weapons registered and monitored to SOME degree. If someone is suddenly buying a lot of high end assault weapons and ammunition that should be looked at with SOME curiosity as to why.
@megamanx181x, ah see I completely disagree about more government intervention and monitoring. The government already is too large and oversteps it bounds. Felons and people with severe mental deficiencies(though who is to decide what qualifies) probably shouldn’t own firearms. But the average citizen has a right to them
@Richard Cypher, how does it overstep? The laws seem fair enough for citizens who legally own weapons since it’s controlled mainly on a state level. Probably? They shouldn’t at all own firearms but that as given especially on felons. You can’t control them from illegally buying weapons. I’m more worried about the everyday normal citizen who is been plotting and taking advantage of the system to stock pile weapons and ammo and go out and commits a shooting that no one saw coming.
@megamanx181x, forgive me for not being more clear. I meant overstep as a general term for the government as a whole, not just this particular issue. And I only said probably because of the mental illness thing. Because sure someone with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia shouldn’t own firearms but what about ADHD or even gender disphoria. who decides what illness qualifies to be able to take away someone’s rights when they have done nothing wrong.
Your issue of someone using the system is pretty much a null point because just changing the rules doesn’t mean they can’t use the new system. Not to mention the fact that it’s relativity easy to pass a mental exam provided you aren’t seriously messed up and just telling a doctor that you want to murder everyone
@Richard Cypher, sure the government is severely messed up that doesn’t seem to discredit having them needing to set something to control the issue (whatever the solution may be if there is any). Yes it tricky to determine which illnesses but i rather look at underlying personality problems (if any) as those may tend to be the ones with violent tendencies for random action. Of course a new system will have flaws but something SHOULD change and we the flaws and make adjustments. No one comes out saying they want to commit murder but you surprised how some behaviors people don’t hide and can be seen as possible problem. Like I said I don’t know what it can be or should be but there should be something and it just feels like a bigger failure. I’m more scared of a normal citizen then a criminal at this point.
@megamanx181x, well I’m sorry that you feel that way. I’ve never had any issues with normal citizens. Just criminals I would worry about. Of course my conservative views would identify me as a problem citizen to the liberal left. And since the politicians make the rules not doctors, that’s enough to condemn me in their eyes.
Some kids start being retarded and eating tide pods so we ban those and tide stops making them. Now I see a story about some kid being retarded and swallowing 4 magnetic ball bearings and needing surgery and how”we need to stop this epidemic”
Maybe something needs to change, maybe not. I don’t know for sure but the knee jerk “let’s just pad all the rooms so no one gets hurt” reaction doesn’t help
@Richard Cypher, I don’t think anyone is banning tide pods, I rather have those kids honestly die for their own stupidity. I get the argument you are trying to make is don’t blame the object and blame the person. Thing is the person had already done a ton of damage and we seem to have no control and false reassurance to prevent mass shootings from happening. Yes there is no guarantee but there seems to be to no attempt to evaluate the ones who are legal gun owners for some kind of potential threat. I don’t think you are a problem citizen and if you have done everything in your responsible power to keep your weapons I’m all for it. Every location we live is different, if you live in a band neighborhood and need conceal carry to protect yourself I’m all for it; I’m even for if you dont live in a bad area if you can prove your responsibility and staying fine with the law.
@megamanx181x, who gets to decide whos mentally well enough to own guns? Thats where we dont trust the system. Gun owners cant even go to the damn therapist without the possiblity of losing our firearms.
@megamanx181x, if someone wants to kill someone or a lot of people its a hell of a lot easier to build a bomb than to spend thousands($10,000+) on a fully automatic assault rifle.
@GunLovingMerican, your right but is it wrong to have an open forum and find something to start on and discuss? There MIGHT be a common ground there or not.
@GunLovingMerican, yes it is but right now we don’t have a bomb problem, we have some safeguards where people buying suspicious materials to make a large scale bomb can be flagged by government agencies. We have some kind of a gun problem where ever one person dying is not ok, a smaller investment to wound to and I’ll some people is what most of these shooters are satisfied with. I don’t know the solution or remedy, it just seems to be getting worst and it’s all fend yourself and if it happens it happens. That sucks
@megamanx181x, the Swiss have mandatory military service, so people are both trained to be proficient in firearms, as well as having discipline drilled into them, but I think that alone wouldn’t work in America. I’ve spent some time looking at analyses of Swiss culture and there’s a sense of brotherhood/family that pervades the nation that American individualism doesn’t sync up with. I’d still be a fan of switching to the Swiss system, as I do think that it might lower the rate of gun violence some, but there are other underlying factors in American society that lead to gun violence that this kind of system would not solve
@Captain Anderson, I think it’s a bad idea to look at American ‘gun culture’ and compare it to any other country. Your nation’s history (pioneers, Wild West, all that stuff) and culture is so different to any other that it’s impossible to compare.
Somewhere like South Africa might be comparable in the sense of it being a European colony with a violent past and a mix of dense urban and sparse rural populations - but even that’s a stretch.
@megamanx181x, we got some of those "safeguards" as a result of April 19, 1995. We didn't have a bomb problem before that day and there's no way to prove whether or not we would have a bomb problem without those new rules. But, for people still trying to buy fertilizer for legal purposes, things got harder.
@Richard Cypher, Interesting theory. I think you’re right about the ‘not respecting the gun’ bit - many shooting seem to happen because a person with poor impulse control or serious self-respect issues sees the gun as an immediate way to get revenge/‘respect’.
Back when the Constitution was written, a gun could be the difference between life and death (stopping a bear attack, driving a wolf away from your cattle, defending the ranch from Injuns etc) so it was a serious investment which people looked after carefully (I’d bet you’ve got guns handed down from your grandparents that are still in perfect nick). These days a lot of people can access cheap, mass produced firearms that they don’t bother to look after.
Not commenting either way on the gun debate, just musing that it’s a much more complex issue than it generally gets presented as.
@megamanx181x, i doubt it would be legally to block gun ownership behind some kind of training program. Gun ownership is a right after all, and regulations cant be too demanding. Thatd be like making people take civic classes everytime they want to vote.
@Captain Anderson, No that would require compromise on both sides.
@Nellybert , my comment was to state that our cultures are too alien to be able to implement the same kind of system the Swiss have
@Captain Anderson, Ah, gotcha. We agree on that.
@Oujosh29, so pretty much all we have is when a person commits a serious crime and does their time in prison they can’t illegally purchase guns.
@GunLovingMerican, no it's not. Bombs are very complicated for one, the parts used to make them are monitored by the government for the most part, it's easy to blow yourself up with one, and if you still managed to make an amateur bomb that would actually explode it would probably only kill a few people.
I'm currently taking a class with a pretty big focus on terrorism and the first point my professor made was that the easiest and cheapest way to kill a ton of people is to buy an automatic weapon and shoot them.
@Captain Anderson, as pro second amendment as I am, I agree with you. Something needs to happen, but banning guns isn't the answer. I think training is. I also think our culture breeds too much irresponsibility. More so than other countries, because of political correctness and because certain groups want the people to believe they can't be at fault for anything, even their own actions.
@Oujosh29, I don't think requiring training for gun ownership is too far. It would at least reduce the frequency of accidental gun deaths and hopefully teach people to safely store their weapons (you're more likely to die in America from a toddler with a gun than a terrorist attack)
Gun ownership is a right but we already put limits on it and I'm sure most gun owners would consider a required gun training course to be more reasonable than a ban on fully automatic weapons.
Additionally (slight tangent), I think with concealed carry reciprocity now a thing there needs to be a national standard for gun ownership requirements so people can't abuse a single state's lax laws.
@Captain Anderson, there is a reason the USA has 50 states and half the landmass of Canada with only 13 provinces
@RogueKnight, i like what you saying but please just give me you opinion on this. Training will help drastically in accidental deaths but what about the issue with people who are essentially law abiding citizens who one day commit a mass shooting? The training itself will not prevent that, if anything it will make them better shoots (as if they didn’t have experience already). I was confused as to why you are saying ban weapons but now i see it fully automatic weapons. Honestly do you believe you need one to defend your home in a close quarters situation or a confrontation on the street? Isn’t a automatic handgun with a double clip capacity enough? Or a semi automatic shotgun for home defense? Why the need for a long range powerful weapon for defense? I mean we can only walk as fast as the slowest person in our group. Having something to assure no one else abuses them too much is irrational?
@megamanx181x, for home defense, nothing beats an AR-15. The rounds are much less likely to over penetrate than handgun and especially shotgun.
I never said ban full auto. Most active shooters don't use full auto anyway.
And by training,I don't just mean on the range. I mean how to store your gun, how to he responsible with it. How to deal with problems without resorting to use of guns unless necessary.
The simple fact is, it is a very small percentage of firearms used in crimes and most of those are illegally obtained.
I'm for education and training,not banning.
It goes beyond home defense and I believe the 2nd Amendment is necessary.
There will always be abuses, whether it be with cars, chemicals, tools, etc. The person is the problem. And the only way to fix that is to work on improving the person. But even with that, nothing is 100%. But the emotional decision making we see today which leads to violence needs to be dealt with.
@RogueKnight, but isn’t a rifle round the equivalent strength of a magnum round? Enlighten me on that cause I do want to learn more about ballistics. But a lot of gun owners argue to want to full automatic weapons, semi automatic seems to not be enough or at least that’s a loud argument made on tv and internet. I like that about not always have to use a gun as an option, enforce the mind and rational to not be heroes. I’m kind of confused why you mention it’s beyond Home defense, are symbolizing the rifle itself it being something grander? I blame the hate we got on the internet flaring up some of these acts.
@megamanx181x, The 2nd Amendment goes beyond home defense. That's what I meant. I don't think it will be necessary in my lifetime, but governments historically become more and more oppressive unless there is some major intervention, whether the people use the power of their votes or other methods. Who knows what the future holds, but our government has issues with spending. What happens when that finally falls out from under them and the government no longer has the means to maintain order? What if another civil war braks out? What if there is, as an example, a major earthquake in California and the police are too busy or are unable to maintain order? There are a lot of other possibilities where weapons are useful, if not necessary. As I said before, I do not believe anything will occur in my lifetime, so don't think me paranoid. But the simple fact is, the possibility exists and our country and world is becoming increasingly divided and aggressive.
More to follow...
@RogueKnight, as far as ballistics, it depends on the rounds you use. Armor piercing will go through walls with ease. But a ball tip .223 round will usually get stuck in sheet rock. The round is very light weight and doesn't have the mass, even with the higher velocity.
Before anyone says I'm full of crap, I'm in law enforcement and our range tested multiple weapons and ammo before deciding with ammo to use in each weapon system.
Yes, you can use the mass x velocity formula to get a handgun round and a rifle round to have comparable energy, but the formula is useless once the rounds start hitting stuff.
@RogueKnight, I understand your opinions and I appreciate we’re having a conversation on this. I agree that the worst case scenario can happen and when there is no law and order weapons will make all the difference in survival. Yes I agree it’s unlikely that government can go rogue and have to interject but it seems those fears are exaggerated and drive those to make the idea of the 2nd amendment extreme along with nationalism. You seem rational enough to understand not to be afraid but aware, but there a ton of people who don’t see it that way. Maybe we should have an updated amendment to reflect the current times we are in, maybe we should have more rational gun owners like yourself speaking more often to better influence those who may be extreme. All I know is I don’t want no one to lose their guns, I want people to be more rational, I would like that but hey the world is rotten and it is what it is.
@Richard Cypher, you are certainly on to something. Some argue that we should go back to public punishment (I.e. Public hangings), now that's it's all behind closed doors we don't see the consequences of our actions. We also have a long road of learning how to treat the mentally unstable, for now we overmedicate them and then are surprised when they lash out.
@Captain Anderson, yeah that would require actual intelligence
@Richard Cypher, the people shooting up schools aren’t at the fault of poor gun responsibility, it’s due to mental health issues. Gun responsibility is normally the issue for accidents and such, but mass shootings are a different story. You can’t blame those on gun responsibility. My problem with people having guns is that virtually any single person, including your or I, could fall victim to some sort of mental illness. That’s my problem with the extreme lack of proper gun control in this country. When someone buys a gun, they get the potential power to kill several people fairly quickly and easily if they want to.
Sure, if somebody wants to kill people they will find a way, but guns make it way too easy for them. You think if that insane kid went into school with any other type of weapon he’d be able to get any more than 1 or 2 people max before he was stopped? But because he had access to a gun, he got 17
@K1l, I think he could have gotten plenty of people with say a knife just walking through the halls. He was a JROTC so maybe he knows where to stab someone to kill them quickly,like spinal cord or jugular or something. The main problem I have with you and Megaman’s position is that you are focused on the “normal citizen turned psychopath”. Monitoring of gun owners(which I believe is a waaaay too far step for the government) wouldn’t do anything for someone who is perfectly normal and shows no signs, past or present, of any instability and then suddenly snaps one day.
I can offer no solution other than some technology like Minority Report that can see the future and no who is going to do what.
@GunLovingMerican, Let's assume you're correct in that it's easier to commit mass murder with a bomb than a gun. Even so, that doesn't mean you shouldn't work to make it harder to do so.
@Richard Cypher, the solution is better gun control. It’s not some crazy far out idea. Every single first world country has banned guns and their governments haven’t turned tyrannical, why would this country be any different? Besides, our government is strong enough that on the extremely small chance they randomly wanted to turn tryannical, we’d have no shot. They have drones and shjt, you really think we have a shot?
I would honestly risk the extremely, very very small chance that the government will randomly go militant against citizens for no reason whatsoever, if it means innocent people and children don’t get killed in mass all the time.
Look at japan: they have fairly strict gun laws. Their biggest mass killing since WWII was 19 people. That’s it, 19 people. In america, that’s considered a low number in a mass killing.
It’s no coincidence that America, the country with the loosest gun laws, has by far the highest murder rate of any first world country.
@K1l, I dislike comparing our situation to other countries like that is some great revelation. “Ban guns then no more crimes ever committed, debt will go away, the Middle East will have peace, everyone will be friendly and get along like family.” There are massive differences between every country and it is not limited to one particular reason why someone might perform better.
This kid was an orphan who was adopted and later the father died and his mother died in November last year. He was expelled for disciplinary problems from the school. This kid is clearly disturbed(in hindsight it seems clearer) and I would bet that he would still do something terrible even without a gun.
Gun control is a buzz phrase that means nothing since we already have gun control laws. You mean ban all guns. Which I am fully against. I don’t care what other countries are doing. I don’t live in those countries and I’m tired of lawmakers trying to push us to be more like them.
@Richard Cypher, Lawmakers are trying to push to be more like them because they have some shjt figured out. Just like why some countries try to be more like America because we have other stuff figured out. America is the newst first world country with this much power, of course we’re gonna be a little behind on issues. For example. the UK and Australia were having gun issues like we are, but they figured out the best thing to do was ban them, which has saves a lot of lives.
Sure, he probably would’ve done something else terrible, but shouldn’t we try to do something that could at least possibly prevent it? “He’d do something else terrible anyway, might as well not try to prevent this other terrible thing” that argument is so dumb.
America is the only first world country with this problem. The solution is clear, it’s been proven by the other countries.
@K1l, it’s a dumb argument but so is “someone might misuse this so we should get rid of it”
there are many countries with higher homicide rates related to firearms than the US. Mexico has very strict gun laws and murder rate is massive. Switzerland has relatively loose gun laws compared to the rest of Europe and has very low murder rates.
The problem is cultural. Not the rules or laws themselves. It’s no surprise that the crowded, strict gun law cities have higher murder rates. The criminals are finding ways to get the guns illegally and contributing to the problem. America is different than most other countries in the culture department. Maybe banning the tool helped some countries with different mindsets, but it doesn’t solve the issue.
We banned alcohol, that didn’t work. We banned drugs, that doesn’t work. We ban murder, that clearly doesn’t work. I fail to see how banning guns now would do anything more than make innocents vulnerable and law abiding citizens into criminals
@Richard Cypher, I never support banning weapons, so if you can try and remove me from that argument. Alcohol and drugs are a choice and we can make a profit off it in taxes and be adults about that you can’t stop someone from over consuming cause they have an addiction , guns are weapons it’s a whole different ball park. I want some kind of conversation started from someone who is rationale with weapons to meet in the middle to do SOMETHING. Not me believing my only option is buy a gun of my own and be prepared for all the different personalities out there that may want to harm me. Yes nothing is guarantee to stop anything but we still bother with laws to deter the idea and properly punish. I get what you are saying in other countries like Mexico but it’s a second world country and they can’t regulate their counties so it’s a moot argument. It’s worked to Europe but I know it’s NOT going to happen here hence why no rational person is saying banning is the solution.
@Richard Cypher, it’s not that hard to come up with some kind of monitoring of the purchase of weapons. This is called preventative action, which is NOT A GUARANTEE to stop anything. But it’s an option to hopefully stop an act of violence if a person falls under these actions and can be stopped. Some of these men casually bought a large amount of weapons over time or suddenly and that COULD be a tip off to the authorities. Can it be annoying for responsible gun owners who may be checked as to what’s going on? Yes it is but for someone who appreciates their right to own one is that not a small unselfish price to pay to show how responsible you are? The ATF is severely under funded her they don’t even have computers to accurately update and find how many weapons people own, valuable information that the police can use on potential violent offenders. If you have no intention of doing nothing wrong with them then what would it hurt to let them know?
@megamanx181x, in your scenario, what exactly would happen? You go to buy a gun and are rejected? We already have background checks so is this an additional system that could refuse you? Then after rejection. ATF agents just appear one day at your house(presumably they can’t give you forewarning of a visit so you can’t hide any nefarious plans) and in the off chance that you are home (or aren’t, maybe they just break in) do they then perform an illegal search of your house? What are they supposed to do? “We noticed you’ve bought some guns recently, whys that? Plan on a murder spree?” “Oh no sir I just like them” “okay then carry on”
And you halfway answered your own statement about being prepared for whatever personalities are out there. That’s all we can do. Unless you are in favor of microchips in the skin and thought monitoring 24/7, there is not a single way to EVER just end whatever violence occurs. Especially the sporadic “normal citizen turned psychopath” situation you’ve said
@Richard Cypher, that could be a scenario but see? I didn’t think that nor did I say it should be that, but that’s at least talking. I can’t see everything and neither can you and at least talking this much is something to do. If anything could be implemented is has to be revised, improved and updated just like every other system/law/department/technological break through/advancement. There is never going to be single final solution, we gotta listen to each other and throw ideas out and talk about them. At least talk not go back and forth and shut each other down. However it just seems we’re all fuvked, just like itself it’s all a matter of luck what happens from here on out. Shvt...
@megamanx181x, I agree that something probably needs to be done. But banning the weapon is a misstep, not a solution(not saying that’s your view). And thought policing isn’t really an option either. The problem stems from cultural issues. And individuals perpetuating generations of irresponsibility until it blows up and people get killed
I do nothing illegal in my home but that doesn’t mean I would be fine with authorities barging in whenever and dig through all my stuff to make sure. If that means that they can’t prevent every disaster then so be it.
@Richard Cypher, then WHO is going to have the balls to be a rational voice and start changing that mentality? Why can’t the NRA or someone stand up and represent that frame of mind to somewhat start changing the culture? I be impressed to at least see that much get done instead of seeing pointless political banter. Can someone be responsible enough to call the police if someone is going to something wrong? Can someone be responsible enough to encourage someone not to even make threats with weapons to answer an argument? Can someone be responsible enough to teach others not to be over passionate over a gun that leads to paranoia and fear and rage? Who will do it?
@megamanx181x, I understand where you’re coming from not being sure if anyone you meet might be that person that blows up and you’re in the middle, or your family or friends. So I know that you feel something needs to be done. I personally don’t have that fear. Most of the time I’m not worried about other people unless I’m walking in an area that is bad. Then I’m watching corners.
I just read about a guy in the U.K. that got attacked by 4 guys that broke into his house with machetes, bats, and golf clubs and at least he had trained in some martial arts to fight them but he got cut and beaten before they ran off. I would have zero chance to stop a group of people that broke into my home and attacked me; whether they had guns or bats I’m dead either way. But on my side a gun means life or death. And I would never trade that security for my own life away
@megamanx181x, when was the last time the media actually broadcasted rational people with genuine thoughts that echo most of America’s thoughts? Or when did that person manage to get to congress and speak before all the lawmakers about the real issue. The NRA is a political organization at this point, on the smaller local level they do some good things, offer training and sponsoring actual gun responsibility but they just have to fight the gun banning lobbyists on the major stage. So a genuine message is lost between the idiotic politics.
And I’ll be honest it starts from home. Why does this person do this? Why is he from a broken home? Why doesn’t he have a responsible father figure or mentor to guide him, teach right from wrong? The “American Values” are being lost if they aren’t gone already. Without some idea of unity, people fall back onto whatever they grew up taught. And sometimes they aren’t taught anything and innocents pay the price. Im getting deeper than it started lol
@Richard Cypher, his sounds freaking genius and I’m amazed how this conversation has gotten. Maybe we need to push more for mental health services in general to help people more and more and not be over looked. Try and find volunteers who want to be more associated in their lives for try and help them and worst case scenario have them committed for their own safety and others if it comes to that.
@Richard Cypher, me neither I don’t live in a bad area and don’t have that need to own a weapon to protect myself but I do pay attention to people that may be a threat. It’s just it’s becoming to damn normal that what we thought are normal people just killing loads of people at one time. It’s too damn normal. I agree with owning guns for home protection, the second a person illegally enters your property with ill intent then do what you got to do. I just am so scared of over romanticization/obsession with people needing guns outside of their homes or the more efficiently military influenced ones for home protection. Hell I want to own a gun and shotgun someday if I can get over my thoughts of not turning it into myself cause my depression flaring up but that’s a whole different story.
@megamanx181x, there was a story recently about a South Dallas middle school, one of the worst performing schools only a few years prior, that was having a Breakfast with Dads event and they had asked for around 50 male mentors to volunteer and show up for students who don’t have that person in their life. Almost 600 men I believe showed up to help. That is astounding. And they were there to encourage these young boys and teach them. Even teaching them how to tie a necktie. So many young people, men especially, are in need of these kinds of mentors and don’t have them, or just don’t have the courage to ask for the help.
An unfortunate side effect of this “breaking the traditional gender roles” and all that, is you end up with these situations where a kid doesn’t have that strong foundation. Everyone has a role. Same as a military to be a cohesive fighting force. Or workers building a skyscraper. There has to be the strong head of family that guides it. Male or female doesn’t matter
@Captain Anderson, as a dual swiss-american citizen, I strongly approve!
Is the US the only country with mass school shootings? I haven't heard of incidents in other countries in recent years.
@HSA, nope Europe has them too
@HSA, naw Europe too. Admittedly America has them far more frequently. Hell we see one every 3 months now I think the statistic is? Plus there are things such as the Las Vegas shooting... Maybe things ARE bad here...
@HSA, in China you get massive school stabbings.
@wulfzen, well, when packed in sardine cans...
@HSA, they happen all over, from a numerical view point they do occur more in the US (this also depends on your definition of mass shooting, as some would have you believe we have hundreds each year)
@Youtuber, I think by January 23rd you'd had 11 school shootings in 2018
@Medic135, The generally accepted definition of a mass-shooting is one where 4 or more people are shot. By that measure you have 9 every 10 days - but that covers everything from a gangland drive-by to a Sandy Hook and counts injuries rather than deaths.
@Nellybert , if you look closely it also includes shootings in which no one was killed or even where a BB gun was used, media takes anything for a story
@Medic135, I know it counts injuries rather than deaths, can’t comment on what they count as a firearm though as I don’t know that.
Just giving you the common definition and noting that there’s a huge range of what counts for that stat. I’m staying waaaaaaaay away from commenting anything pro/anti gun/gun laws/gun control. 👍🏻
@Nellybert , good thinkin buddy boy 👍
@Medic135, Without any implied comment on gun laws, you guys have way more shootings per head than anyone else. I think there’s one small Arab state which comes close, but those crazy f**kers take AKs to a wedding so that’s bound to lead to their stats going up. 😋
@Nellybert , we have an issue absolutely! But the solution to it has yet to actually be even suggested, everyone just uses it as leverage for some other agenda they already wanted
@Medic135, Indeed. Banning guns wouldn’t work (or happen) and arming everyone (students, teachers, librarians, preachers etc) would create a whole other set of problems - so f**k knows what the solution is!
@Nellybert , haha I agree completely
@HSA, they happen everywhere. But the U.S. is about the only country where they are reported world wide.
@Youtuber, there was literally a school shooting in Florida less than an hour ago.
@HSA, A Parkland Florida High School just had a mass shooting this afternoon. 14 reported dead.
@HSA, Just watched an update.. fvcking tragic..
@Youtuber, 3 months? Closer to 3 weeks sometimes... Kentucky week or two ago, then Florida this week. Ridiculous. We’ve had 18 school shootings in the US and it’s mid February...... I love America, but wow this stuff needs to be changed.
@HSA, In Canada we have very very few. I have heard of one in my recollection.
@Youtuber, we have one every 2 days now actually
@XxNHLxX, honestly you're right. But people, especially Republicans obviously want no backround check laws to be made... I wish it were this easy
Germany has a massive number of legal guns in circulation and a mass shooting rate WAY lower than most countries, America included. They just do professional psyche evaluations on anyone who wants to buy a gun. Which is a much better indication of future violence if someone has a clean criminal record. They also have stricter policies when it comes to ensuring you're fit to own a firearm. I agree that we should have the freedom to protect ourselves, but if you want to own something with the capacity to kill several people in seconds, there needs to be more than just red tape involved. I think that's a healthy compromise.
@Pete Parker , true but population size is considerably lower compared to the us also almost every mass shooting has happened in the super safe gun free zones
Oh fvck off.
50%+ of gun related deaths in America are suicides.
@ToddHowardsParents, whats your argument?
@Hoban Washburne, That the gun related death statistic is heavily inflated.
@ToddHowardsParents, from my perspective id say lack of access to guns might lower the rate of suicide in the US. this is just speculation, but when you actually have to plan and execute a suicide attempt it seems as though you’d be more likely to back down than if you had an instantaneous urge and a gun that could help you act on it inside of 15 seconds. suicides are still gun deaths
@ToddHowardsParents, it's not inflated. Those people died from guns.
@Hoban Washburne, that is absolutely true. Around 90% of people who fail a suicide attempt never try again. Not having access to a gun can absolutely save a suicidal person's life.
@ToddHowardsParents, in addition, if you are going to pick at the total gun death I would like to pick at gun suicide by saying we see a lot of accidental suicides in that set.
Because we value our freedom, and we assume the risk that comes with not restricting our citizens.
@Captain Anderson, the same argument could be applied to handing a baby a bazooka. as an american, some freedoms need policing
@Captain Anderson, speed limits on the road? A society will always need to impose restrictions on individual freedom (and enforce those). It is up to every society to asses and accept risks and weigh those to individual freedom. I can go to a public place with a concealed 9mm, but I am not allowed to go naked? (Even though one is absolutely safe and harmless, definitely with my body) Absolute freedom does not exists and that is a good thing!
@Hoban Washburne, @Smurf309fs,
I see my original comment was a bit vague. I was replying to the picture, which portrays a European asking why the US doesn’t get rid of guns completely. I do recognize the need for some regulation, but in comparison to the picture’s scenario, I made my comment saying we do not restrict our citizens.
@Captain Anderson, Keep assuming it, see if it helps
Because *columbine massaker* its safer * got shotet by some psycho with a pumpgun* with guns * a litte girl accidently kills her instructor in her gun training*
@Don Quixote Corazon, sorry you’ll have to repeat that, my toddler found the gun and shot himself along with both his siblings again, had to go and buy another gun to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
@YUNoJump, that sounds like it's your own fault for keeping a loaded gun in range of a toddler? Clearly a case of dumbassery
@Don Quixote Corazon, Oh yeah because *gets shot in gun free zone* It's not like *get murdered by a psycho with a pumpgun because you're not carrying your own gun* people carrying *hands little girl full auto gun, then dies to own stupidity* guns legally *defends self from crackhead with my legally concealed carried semiauto* makes them safer or anything.
You're fvcking retarded by the way.
@Captain Swordsman, I read that as ‘puntgun’ at first - which would be both messy and impressive.
@Captain Swordsman, makes you safer in 1% of scenarios and way more at risk in the other 99%
an intelligent person doesnt attack the arguer, they attack the argument, the former is a rhetorical fallacy
but i guess im not too bright cuz you seem like a real dipshjt
The problem is, people are stupid cunts,
Way to stupid to handle something like a gun. Guns give every idiot with a stupid opinion (like you seem to be) the power to harm other people, thats why i hate guns, and every idiot whos says something like “carrying a gun makes you safer“.
in a world without guns, you wouldnt need a gun to protect yourself and your beloved ones.
@Don Quixote Corazon, Ah, an excellent ad hominem, my friend. And a few absurdities thrown in for flavor, very nice. Indeed, by carrying a gun I have, in theory, the ability to end the life of anyone nearby with little to no opposition. This, of course, is what guns were meant to do. However, the problem here is that your argument is not only an appeal to authority, it is an appeal to a non-existent authority at that; your imagined authority to declare the general populous unfit for the responsibility of owning a gun. And why do you make the claim that one who says "carrying a gun makes you safer"? Can you somehow refute this claim, despite literal decades of evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt that carrying a gun makes the person carrying it safer? Or do you only hate people who happen to be idiots yet still know the truth of this statement?
Finally, I want to address the final sentence of your comment, the most absurd of them all.
@Don Quixote Corazon, firstly, "a world without guns" would never exist, because anyone with steady hands and patience can walk into their garage with $250 worth of tools and some scrap metal, and walk out with a working handgun. Of course it won't be up to par with a professionally made handgun but it is possible. Secondly, the most absurd claim I have ever witnessed a human being make, that guns would be unneccesary for self defence in a world without guns. Have you actually never heard of women being raped? Have you never heard of smaller men being mugged by larger men, or people with knives? Perhaps you believe that we live in a world where good people are always bigger and stronger than bad people, or that pepper spray actually stops a determined attacker. Whatever the cause may be, the fact remains that your belief that guns would be unneccesary for self-defence in a gun-free world has no basis in real-world precedent, logic, or even in theory.
@Medic135, I know, right? Maybe someone so reckless shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.
Oh, and of course a rapist couldnt use a weapon. And if someone threatens you with a knife and you come back with a gun, they never would get a bigger gun the next time, right?
@Depressed Panda, nah man that’s infringing on my second amendment rights, everyone’s gotta have a gun the founding fathers said so
@Don Quixote Corazon, LOL, if you show someone your gun and your life isn't in danger to the point where you're ready and willing to kill them, you're doing it wrong. It's always like this, too. YOU, the liberal democrat Orwellian Inner Party guy, don't understand responsible gun use, so you assume everyone else doesn't as well but guess what buddy, IT'S JUST YOU. Just because you can't be trusted with a gun doesn't mean no one else can.
@Captain Swordsman, I’d like to bring up the fact that a great deal of first-world countries other than America have gun restrictions that prevent normal people from having/carrying guns, and yet those countries are not really worse off than America in regards to crime. They also have about 10x less mass shootings, and obviously about a million times less gun-related suicides, either intentional or due to misuse of the gun.
I swear to the gods [the old and the new (^-^“) ], even if i was about to get raped by in a bar and i had a gun in my hand, i wouldnt use it. I would feel bad if i would hide behind a gun. This may not sound reasonable to you but i think everyone who wants to have a gun is a coward.
“the bigger the gun, the weaker the coward thats hiding behind it“
-trevor, GTA V
@Captain Swordsman, I think the idea that everybody is responsible with guns is a fallacy. People are, historically speaking, quite irresponsible. Accidental gun deaths happen every day. Also I thought you didn’t like ad hominems?
@Don Quixote Corazon, you should try telling that to actual rape victims. Of course you don’t know the horror and trauma that comes hand in hand with such a terrible scenario, so maybe you shouldn’t be making light of it. Oh, also, what’s your opinion of the soldiers that defend the right to speak your mind? Are they cowards for “hiding behind guns”? Your “super cool katana collection” isn’t gonna cut it. Especially, when bad people decide to not follow law/regulation, and pick up an illegal gun them self.
@prxjxct, Nice way to hide behind the military.
Even so, are the soldiers in the Middle East actually fighting to protect my freedoms?
@Captain Swordsman, you’re one of the dumbest cliché I’ve ever seen
@Fearless Fapper, well you're THE dumbest cliché I've ever seen
@Captain Swordsman, Instead of trolling on FP, go pray for those ~17 kids who died at school yesterday
Guns should be banned in America because of their concentration of stupidity. Australia, Switzerland, Canada all have gun laws but the US has a ridiculous gun death per capita
@WhyNotBoth, the US has 30,000 "gun deaths" per year, in a population of 321,000,000, meaning everyone in the us has, statistically, a 1:10,700 chance of "gun death". Thing is, an entire 2/3 of those are suicides (with studies showing that access to a gun is not a determining factor in suicide), so only 10,000 non-suicide gun deaths per year. Of those 10,000, about a thousand are accidental or undetermined circumstances. So we've got 9,000, homicides with guns per years, or a 1:35,666 chance of an American being murdered. Oh, but of those 9,000 homicides, EIGHTY PERCENT are gang or drug related. So every year, 1,800 Americans not involved in a gang or drug ring are murdered using a gun. That's a 1:178,333 chance of being murdered if you're a law abiding American, vs a 1:114,956 chance of being murdered in the Glorious People's Gun-Free Caliphate of Britainstan, aka the UK.
@Captain Swordsman, Google "Gun death capita graph" and just have a look
@WhyNotBoth, Low end estimates of defensive gun use in the US is around 50,000 or 27 times as likely to happen to a US citizen as a non-gang/drug related murder. Now go ahead and tell me the US needs to ban guns again, now that you know the facts are against you in every way.
@WhyNotBoth, or better yet how about I actually do the research which I did and show you the actual research and not just a Googled graph?
@Captain Swordsman, Wikipedia says that a study conducted by UCLA and Melbourne University found that per capita the Switzerland has 7.7 gun homicides with Canada as 5.1 whilst the US has 29.7! This is reported on Vox too and frankly common sense dictates that the US would have way more anyway
@WhyNotBoth, box is one of the most unreliable networks out there
@badbitch420, They're actually not that bad. They're less objective with their reporting, but that's because their goal isn't to report facts, but rather to explore the truths between the facts. In other words, they're less objective and more interpretive. Besides, the only sources that report Vox to be untrustworthy are pretty right-leaning, so watch out.
Aaaaaaaaand another school shooting today. Not going to get into it, but the number of preventable shooting in the US is insane and needs to be changed. It’s really sad.
I mean. They are still statistically safer. So.
Nail bomb? Was that real?
@SqurtieMan, there have been a few reports of bombings using nail bombs. The Manchester bombing was reported to be a nail bombing though I’m not certain.
@Richard Cypher, ‘Nail bomb’ is our media’s equivalent of ‘assault rifle’. It’s a vaguely defined concept basically meaning that there was possibly shrapnel added to the bomb. BBs are more common, but that sounds less scary.
United States United Kingdom undisputed fact
If we would just focus on the things that most people die of we would potentially be able to save many more people. Most people die from medical issues or accidents. Not from intentional acts (excluding suicide)
@Implicit88, I don't see why we can't worry about both.
@Jdrawer, ideally it would be best to prioritize efforts and money on things most people die of and work your way down the list. There are limited resources.