Yeah my daughters date wore a wolf on his noggin. I havent seen her for a couple weeks though
@Guy Fawkes, hail Caesar
@Guy Fawkes, my daughters date was wearing a mask, but was very well dressed. I didn’t know it was a masquerade ball
Yeah I'm loving New Vegas, but glory it fails when it comes to Gray morality in the Mojave. The Powder Gangers are cvnts and Cesar's Legion is a diseased cvnt. The Great Khans are okay, but they basically brag about how their current state was their own damn fault. Even with its faults, NCR is the only choice that makes sense...The Strip is more complicated, which I like.
Of course, the only truly good faction is The Kings. Hail to the Kings, baby.
@SimonPetrikov, i really appreciated the independent new vegas. The story is basically the same as with house but i feel either NCR or Independent was the rational choice
@SimonPetrikov, I’ve played it through the NCR and through the Strip but this time I’m going through the game as Ceasars Legion and honestly the philosophy the faction has isn’t that bad.
@TheCoolestBean, They're literally the raep pillage and burn faction.
@SimonPetrikov, they enslave people, and burn. Raeping and pillaging within their faction is punishable by death. They enslave people and turn them to their ideology to “ give them purpose.”
@TheCoolestBean, again, how is this a decent ethical philosophy? Enslavement and raising settlements are pretty much unequivocally bad.
Now, if they did the Starship Troopers thing and offered citizenship to those who voluntarily serve in their army/as personal servants for “x” years, that’d be different. But they full on enslave and burn down any settlement that won’t bow to Caesar, even when they do not have jurisdiction over that settlement like Nipton.
Therefore, I cannot bring myself to see them as worthy of anything other than a bullet to the brainpan. All of them. I would saddle up with Boone and murderize all Legionnaires in sight
@TheCoolestBean, All they do is burn down progress and enslave those that aren’t them. Caesar likes to pretend he’s creating the next Rome but he’s completely forgotten the establishment of a national civilized culture that can flourish in favor of a literal cult that worships him as a god.
@SimonPetrikov, I love the Kings and the Followers of the Apocalypse. They both just want to help and stabilize the areas around them. I also like Jason Bright and his group but they are more of a cult then a faction
@Fairy Squad Mother, The Followers are cool too.
@TheCoolestBean, i agree with you. In the post apocalypse his philosophy is brutally effective. But he has no heirs. None that could maintain the legion in any sort of fashion anyway. If Ulysses lead it after Caesar, or the Courier decided to join and subsequently lead, it may even have a chance of surviving after they have pushed completely east. But he has no heirs so the legion is ultimately doomed to fail.
And im speculating here, but at the point that the legion had succeed and also had the next Caesar, i think most of the war mentality of "raze and enslave" would naturally die down leaving a much safer post war land.
The legions decision to obliterate the identity of the clans it takes would actually ensure that in-fighting would take a while to arise and because the "legion" is surrounding everyone at that point it would be unwise to cross them even in peace
@Guy Fawkes, The next leader of the legion would probably be either The Courier or Legate Lanius. It was also told by Ulysses that the legion once it the sea it would turn and devour itself. But Caesar disagrees. Caesar was a follower of the apocalypse and read a lot of books. Some of them being about thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. Basically The legion is the thesis, the NCR is the antithesis, opposite in every way. The synthesis is when the legion takes over the NCR, the legion would take on some attributes of the NCR. It would most likely become less warlike and maybe even establish a republic like government, thus ensuring the survival of Ceasars Legion.
@Sven and Otar, they do not burn down any settlements that don’t bow to Ceasar. The destroyed Nipton because it was a cesspool of filth and immorality. I’m not saying they’re the greatest but if you really look into the ideology it makes sense.
@TheRatMan, Caesar does not burn down progress. He replaces old ideologies and governments with his way of life. He believes that the NCR is corrupt, he also believes that uncivilized tribes need a purpose. He feels he gives that purpose.
@TheCoolestBean, but all of that is under the leadership of Caesar. And he has a brain tumor as well as old age. Caesar is wise and a powerful man no doubt. But his death would almost certainly be the undoing. Particularly if Lanius is left in charge, he is a military leader not a political leader.
And it was the fact that Ulysses saw the possible flaws that would make him a viable leader for the legion, he was learning along with the courier (they were kind of set up to mirror eachother that way). The legion has many flaws, but its biggest is its lack of "likely" longevity in my opinion.
@Guy Fawkes, yeah you’re probably right
@TheCoolestBean, irrelevant imo. Just because a town is riddled with crime and immoral behavior does not give one the right to so brutally enforce their paradigm of morality.
Washington D.C. is full of corrupt, immoral, and evil people in positions of power. Some of whom may legitimately ethically deserve severe punishment such as befits treason in an ideal world. This does not mean we have the ethical right to loot and burn the city to the ground, enslave the populace, and conscript them into our gang led by a charismatic leader.
Philosphy of ethics requires ethics be unchanging regardless of circumstance. Context may allow for understanding of certain behaviors, but what is right will always be right, and what is wrong will always be wrong. Relativism is baloney as any self-respecting ethics teacher will tell you.
@TheCoolestBean, now, if you wish to argue that, while Caesar’s rule was cruel, it is the best hope in the long run, and perhaps we could handwave some succession issues, I’d be more inclined to buy into it.
The BoS in Fallout 4 is arguably pretty dang misguided, but realistically, they are, right off the bat, the best hope for humanity in the Commonwealth to prosper. They have a formalized governmental structure, strong military presence and security, means of manufacturing new goods (the T-60 suits are made in DC), and they are at least well-intentioned toward humanity. While yes, they would seek the slaughter of innocent synths and ghouls who are “full persons” which is abhorrent and they bully their citizens into paying taxes of food and supplies, they bring a lot of good in return.
I can definitely get behind an argument like this on behalf of the Legion if it is possible to be constructed.
@Sven and Otar, Nipton signed away there right to life, there mayor of Nipton was payed by the legion for them to spring a trap. The mayor didn’t know he be part of the trap but he did sell out the town. The Legion did this to prove how corrupt the town was.
If you really believe that Washington D.C. is full of corrupt people organize a revolution. We as Americans have that right should thing get that bad. That’s why we have the second amendment, “When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government.” So actually you have a right to to overthrow them.
And we’re not talking ethics we’re talking political and military philosophy/ideology in an apocalyptic world. Ceasars Legion is brutally effective in warfare and spreading their ideology.
@TheCoolestBean, not the average citizen. They had no right to enslave or kill anyone who was not apart of that power structure. Yes, the mayor was scum looking for a profit, and if they killed/tortured him and made an example publicly, I’d be willing to give it a pass. It is the fact that all this relatively innocent life was also taken, abused, and enslaved that I take issue with.
As to D.C., I have some faith that the system can be righted, but I am not naïve enough to think that the likely avenue this will happen won’t be through violence, but things must unravel further before that all happens, and the moment it truly does, is the time I will take up arms in defence of my ideals. Until that day though, I will abide by being a lawful citizen.
As for political/military philosophy vs ethics, they are intertwined at some level. Also your initial statement of their philosophy not being, “that bad” I understood to be an ethical argument. But in either case, the Legion isn’t too great
@TheCoolestBean, while yes, they are an effective military in the short term. Adopting Rome’s philosophy of absorbing conquered people’s and getting them invested in the Empire as a whole to help ensure loyalty is a good one when you are on the warpath. The issue is they will eventually expand beyond what they can reasonably control.
Furthermore they do not produce anything of note in their territory, their entire economy is based off of expansion, therefore once they expand too far and have to try and sustain themselves, they will likely fail by the square law just in an economic sense. Maybe they try and industrialize or make use of the NCR’s industry if they can actually start seriously making gains in NCR territory, but just like naval strategy, economics is built strategy and takes a lot of time and effort to make effective change.
Politics will be part III
@Sven and Otar, the average citizen in Nipton was extremely, just as corrupt as the mayor. The Lottery proved that.” Each clutched his ticket, hoping it would set him free. Each did nothing even when their “loved ones” where dragged away to be killed.” They cared about nothing but themselves.
Cool, but remember the option is always there. Should it get that bad.
I don’t like the legion, I personally would like to put a nice solid .45 caliber chunk of lead in each and everyone of their heads. But I’ve played as the NCR, so I thought naturally I thought I should play as the legion, the exact opposite faction. I’m playing and I look deeper into the legion than I did in my first run through, and I am realizing they aren’t absolutely evil. I think that it’s not a horrible ideology. It’s not ideal either though.
@TheCoolestBean, their political structure works for the short term, but not long term. Caesar rules by cult of personality effectively and does not have a plan of succession in place, this is a serious problem. If Caesar can find a suitable replacement that is similarly skilled as a leader and general, then they might have a chance, the issue is that eventually they’ll fail to replace the Emperor with someone effective and then they’ll be in serious trouble. The chances of the power structure changing toward a republic is slim at best because power generally trends upwards unless you’re Cincinnatus.
If they had a better plan in place then I’d agree, they’d be killing it politically. But as it stands, it’s like they signed up for a boxing match, and they only trained on how to make their hits count and how to get around the defence and spent zero time conditioning. They’ll be dead in the water after two rounds and their opponent will be able to make a comeback pretty handily
@TheCoolestBean, your average person would not do so either though. There are dozens and hundreds of instances where people pass by stabbing victims or ignore people pleading for help after getting robbed in big cities, preferring to keep their heads down and ignoring those in need.
I guarantee you, most people would do nothing but scream or cry if an armed group of rough men came and grabbed their loved ones to kill/enslave/arrest them. This does not mean that they deserve death as well, that would be far too cruel and unrealistic to expect. Your average person resorts to flight/freeze when fight or flight kicks in, people who jump into the fray, willingly sacrificing their lives for others including family are relatively few when taken as a whole.
@Sven and Otar, holy shjt dude, I’m pretty impressed at the amount of effort your putting into this. You’re making a lot of pretty solid points. Exactly how much research did you put into this, cause from this perspective it seems like a fvck ton of research.
Ceasars Legion is not a long term thing it’s quite obvious that as soon and Ceasar dies it’ll either fall apart or a revolution will tear it apart limb from limb.
@Sven and Otar, the people of Nipton did no cry for others, the sentence was a quote from Vulpes Inculta. He described the atrocities in the town, no one cared anything for anyone but themselves.
@TheCoolestBean, Not to toot my own horn, but I’m kinda a renaissance man with many, many interests. But I’m really into political and ethical philosophy and love to debate. I was going to go into law school but realized I’d be miserable being a lawyer, too firebrand to be a judge, and too likely to shoot myself in the foot to be a politician. I recognize that I am the sort of fellow to lead a revolution and give rousing speeches, not the kind of person to be in the civilized establishment. I might have delusions of grandeur, but also am self-aware of my limitations.
As to the research of this particular debate, fairly minimal, just playing the game and extrapolating based off the knowledge-base I already have from studying history.
@Sven and Otar, well this whole this whole thing is getting super stretched out and getting harder to follow each individual comment. I think it’s time to wrap it it up, it’s been pretty fun. Good luck and good fortune to all your comments and memes in the future!
@TheCoolestBean, I would argue this statement to be suspect though, he stands to gain by twisting the truth a little to fit his narrative. Cultists and hardcore political adopters of extreme ideologies do that all the time to rationalize their cruelest actions. Research has been done on this proving that people will do this sort of thing if they generally consider themselves good. If he’s amoral like a psycho/sociopath, he very well might enjoy this fabrication/embellishment just for shjts and giggles and to see the look on your face when he tells you this.
I would pay $30 for a new vegas goty remaster.
I definitely thought that said porn date
You know, I thought this was the NCR from PlanetSide and the Terran Republic flag and got really confused.