How did they not see this coming?
You gotta be careful playing with minimum wages and low paying jobs. That standard reflects the worth of the dollar and lowers as you increase wages, ironically giving you more money worth even less than before. These guys figured out that McDonald's has a budget for employee hours and they got more per hour but lost hours and jobs. This is the same line of thinking, and short term decisions that feel right will ruin you instead
@Dephenistrator, you arnt wrong. But it's still an unreasonable wage to try and live off of. We have a major problem as a country when it comes to what you can get with your wage and what you basically need to live.
@naMsdrowkcaB, true, but those jobs were never meant for people to live independently from
@Dephenistrator, that is not at all how money works, there are actual arguments against higher minimum wage and that is not one of them
@naMsdrowkcaB, i agree we have a wage problem, i live in Washington state where there solution is to dramatically increase minimum wage to dangerous levels. It is the opposite of how you solve this problem. And again like hot coffee said, that's not a pay your meant to live off of.
@naMsdrowkcaB, not every job is designed to support a person. A part time tutor should never make a living wage. A full time cashier at a grocery store shouldn’t be able to fully live off of their wages (without government assistance like section-8 housing or food stamps). Being something like a basic accountant for a business is considered ‘higher skilled’ and therefore makes closer to a ‘living wage.’
See a common denominator? Low skills = low wages
I know you replied he isn’t wrong, but when you say it’s an unlivable (if that’s a word) wage, it seems like you’re still trying to convince others to raise the wage.
I could be wrong about how I’m interpreting your comment. Oh whale
@Donald Drumpf, he's describing inflation badly I think (sorry op it's true). As minimum wage goes up people have more spending money. They go out and spend this money which drives prices of products up. This decreases the value of your average dollar and makes your money worth less over time. This relationship is called inflation and rapidly increasing minimum wage causes hyper inflation which is even worse for the economy in the long run.
@Cl3v3rN1ckn4me, I don't know where you're getting you're economic advice from but you should invest in pyramid inc. They have a great scheme to make money fast. Inflation is bad yes, but salary raises don't constitute inflation, only the government printing more money does. That salary raise would come from the company not the government. Aka the net amount of money hasn't changed. Also, not even the most brain dead of economists would ever say that "More people spending more money is bad for the economy"
@MrLampoon, That’s a little unreasonable that people who don’t have a higher education can’t afford basic necessities OR higher ed to get a better job, right? Minimum wage full-time jobs up until the 1980s-90s could support a person, then cost of living exceeded the amount minimum wage is. This is uniquely a contemporary issue that our parents/grandparents didn’t have to deal with.
@Dephenistrator, But it is. The purpose of minimum wage was literally to allow people working basic jobs to have enough money to live off of.
@Hot Coffee, But they were. They literally were instituted to ensure that everyone working in America could afford the basics.
@Donald Drumpf, the spending of the money isn't what's bad, it's the injection of so much new money from everyone's new three dollars (or however much) from the minimum wage increase (governments way of increasing salaries which we were never talking about btw). I guess that's where I went wrong in my original comment, I was explaining the consequences of increasing minimum wage not so much the consequences of just McDonald's upping it's wages. I live in Ontario and we just had a drastic minimum wage increase so I'm just speaking based on what I learned during the arguments for and against it.
@Kalam1ty, Not right. According to NCBC, the highest living wage would average 68k, the lowest is 45k.
The people who demand more money want $15/hr right? Still not enough (31k/yr). Numerous studies and actual real results from case studies (cities) show that an increase that high ($15/hr) would cause major economic setbacks; layoffs, etc.
So no, it’s not reasonable to force an employer to pay a low-skilled worker the money to live off of if they do not have the ability to contribute very much to the business.
@MrLampoon, An increase that high, yes, but that’s dodging the actual issue: minimum wage was put in place to be a living wage and asking people to work 80 hours a week to afford rent is inhumane. An immediate jump from 9 to 15 would damage the economy, but those same politicians saying we couldn’t go up to 15 have fought incremental increases for the past 45 years when cost of living began to eclipse minimum wage.
@naMsdrowkcaB, McDonald's is subsidized by the government. They can pay people $8/hr and the government gives them food stamps and other aid. It's needs to stop.
@Kalam1ty, wrong again. The minimum wage was established to “help bolster wageworkers and decrease class stratification” according to the History News Network. Not to make a living wage, but to help people actually have money. In addition, according to Cornell Law Institute, the minimum wage was established to set “a base level of pay that employers are required to pay.”
The original intent wasn’t to make a living off of, but to force employers to may a certain (minimum) amount in wages. Not a living wage.
@Hot Coffee, "...no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”
“By ‘business’ I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of decent living..."
@naMsdrowkcaB, but a higher skilled person logically needs to make more than you to make their skulls worth the time to learn. In other words, no matter how high the mini goes. Prices will always be higher than comfortable for the minimum wage recipients.
@Kalam1ty, even if that were true, you summed it up with the basics. A small apartment and food. Which you can afford on the minimum. You can't expect a big add house and a brand new truck in your drive when you doing burgers for a living.
@Cl3v3rN1ckn4me, that's not new money
@Donald Drumpf, that's downright wrong. Raising wages always damages companies and lowers wages and or slashes jobs. You shouldn't be telling people otherwise and think your helping them understand
@Donald Drumpf, Yeah this is true and my reasoning for the inflation is spotty at best in my previous comments. After some real research I've learned that the relationship of increasing minimum wage and inflation is yet unproven, meaning neither of us is right. The current theory is that by increasing minimum wage drastically enough you are closing out small business owners and specialized laborers who were working at/paying someone the new minimum wage. These people would either be fired or prices would inflate to accommodate them. Honestly it would most likely be the former leaning towards your arguments. But that could still be bad, especially for the specialized laborer who only knows his one skill that no longer pays above minimum wage.
@Dephenistrator, if that is what you managed to get from reading this thread then you need to read more books
@Donald Drumpf, your wrong, stubborn, and not worth bitching with.
@Dephenistrator, I really wish I could live in your made up world of absolute evils that you triumph over heroically everyday
@Donald Drumpf, it's called skyrim
@naMsdrowkcaB, so get a better job
@Caine, nobody expects that, though. A small apartment and basics cost anywhere from 1500-2000 per month. 40 hrs a week at minimum wage nets you ~1400 a month.
@MrLampoon, I like how you cherry picked around the specific parts of the quotes that say “The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees.” According to Cornell U Law encyclopedia. You took what it specifically did and acted like that was the goal. It’s not. It was to make a minimum standard of living of employees in America.
@Kalam1ty, how in the hell is “stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force” inferring that the minimum wage was designed for making a ‘livable’ wage?
It doesn’t. The main point of the original minimum wage was to protect people in the work force from being paid too little for the work they did, not make them 100% able to live off the minimum. I didn’t cherry pick anything, I picked the sentences from two sources that state the synopsis of the original law.
@MrLampoon, ... did you just not read the second half of the quote?
@MrLampoon, It literally says “to create a minimum standard of living.” Also, buddy, minimum wage at the time was totally a living wage. Above that, actually. It was enough for a family of 4 to live in an average (not low-end, average) and have about 1/3 of their paycheck left for food. Average gross rent (including amenities) today is 1,050. Minimum wage nets a person 1,160 per month- leaving less than a tenth of the budget for food, transportation and healthcare. I encourage you to live off $110 per month for those three things. Debt reduction services suggests spending between 75 and 125 per person on groceries. Okay, let’s go bare minimum. $35 left. The average American uses 41 gallons of gas per month. Uh oh. Gas hasn’t averaged below $.90 /gallon since 1980. Let’s continue to pile it on, because life does that anyway. Education (to get a job where you aren’t totally in the red while working 40 hours per week) costs the average community college student (including financial aid)
@Kalam1ty, my fault. I blame the beer. I admit I didn’t fully read the whole quote.
We all make mistakes right?
However, as @Caine pointed out, you are fully able to live on minimum wage, albeit a low ‘standard’ of living.
I could have lived on minimum wage but I chose a nicer apartment, drove a less fuel-efficient vehicle, live farther from work, etc. and therefore made it harder to live on that wage, so I learned more (specializing).
I’ll give you one interpretation of the law is for making everyone able to afford basic necessities, but as with economics, when you make something 100% accessible, the standard raises and therefore outpaces the once-sufficient standard.
Can you give me the fact that the law also is designed to protect workers from getting paid too little for their work?
Tbh, I see it as (based on the wording) it is mainly focused on setting a minimum standard rate of pay, and an added benefit is it helped people get by on the minimum necessities like housing and food.
@Kalam1ty, also, I didn’t cherry pick around the quotes, I just didn’t go as far down on that page as you did. I stuck to the synopsis at the top.
Not discrediting your post, just explaining where I got my quote. :)
@MrLampoon, $3,260 per year, meaning about $272 per month. That’s already unattainable, but let’s suppose this average American can scrounge up enough money to be in school by, I don’t know, selling their kidneys (both), they still need to buy books, supplies, parking passes or internet, books, supplies and a laptop, if they’re taking online classes. For the first, that’s a one-time cost of between 150-300 or a one time cost of 120 followed by monthly costs of $132 (low end of average cost of internet in america) Let’s backtrack a bit. If they moved to Toledo (discounting the cost of moving), the city with the lowest average rent ($550), that’s still a total monthly cost of $1,148, leaving $12 extra per month. When are they going to save up enough money for one semester of books? Good question: in a year. Meaning 4 years of working 40 hours a week with no room for missteps. No major illnesses, no car breakdowns, no mistakes at all. But- oh, man. One more monthly cost. Car insurance.
@MrLampoon, The average cost of car insurance is $35 per month in Ohio, meaning our average American is back in the red. That’s what they get for not being able to afford college, right?
@MrLampoon, well, consider the time it was introduced in. This is right on the heels of American industrialization when people would get paid five cents for a work week that was seven days a week, from sun up to sundown. As live-in workers were phased out by most American companies, they kept the same low wages. While this was sustainable in the early 1900s and into the early 19 teens, this soon caused many people to live in the horrible conditions of 25 or more in a single one bedroom apartment. Also, in the 1950s, in the heyday of what we would consider the minimum wage movement, a teenager working a minimum wage job could very easily save up enough money to put themself through college, and afford to buy a (new) car, and afford to have plenty of money left over to save and spend as they wish, today, teenagers do not have that ability. And, as my other post said, minimum wage isn’t enough for the bare minimum, especially if they wanted to get a better job through education.
@Dephenistrator, you know that with as much as they make they can afford it
@eleven, doesn't by any means mean they will give more if they can squeeze out a tighter skeleton crew instead. That's a soft effect to rely on and dangerously skirts the idea of forcing people out of their money. Yes there rich, but that's a snowball effect once the government decides "they can afford it" the simplest answer that solves every problem is a slower minimum wage increase. Raising it isn't my issue, it's the speed. Every time you raise minimum wage your wage is also worth less as well and you have to carefully balance this effect. People angry or more commonly jealous of the rich think getting more money from them is a Robin hood type effect. But that is fantasy, and the answer lies in shear mathematics and basic economics.
@Dephenistrator, inflation sucks
@eleven, i whole heartedly agree
@Dephenistrator, Doesn’t change the fact that for minimum wage workers, the choice is “work 80 hours a week or get evicted,” which, again, shouldn’t be the case because of what minimum wage was designed for. So the solution from a lawmaking perspective is to raise wages or to forcibly lower prices. Cost of living keeps going up, so the wages need to go up in response.
@Kalam1ty, you forget i agree with that. It just needs to be done carefully or slowly. Raising wages too quickly or too much in one go is my complaint here.
@Donald Drumpf, clap to you sir. You actually know what you are talking about. Most people dont understand they way money works. As you said inflation occurs when more money enters the economy AND there isnt enough goods to go around.
@Dephenistrator, first, inflation happens when there is too much money changes too few goods. That isnt the case right now nor will be in the future thanks to mass production. The other way is money printing (current cause for inflation). Minimum wage needs to go up and be tied to cost of living and inflation by region (no national average). $15 minimum wage is great for big cities but bad for small towns in rural areas. They should go up monthly until the desired level is reached for each region over a 1-3 year period depending on how much the increase is. We need to stop printing money. One could also argue say we need to limit credit card debt per person. The main thing we need is to increase purchasing power, higher wages and credit limits would do that.
@Implicit88, you know i know and agree to that and Donald drumpf here is arguing me anyway right? I am arguing the speed minimum wage is raised because in my state hitting 15 an hour in 2 or 3 years is increasing it by nearly 50% and has been causing hell for us poor people here. I had to leave a town and cut my spending because prices of everything won't stop raising. If you think it's a bad idea to raise minimum wage like i completely agree with, but slower.... then argue me. And stop reciting basic crap, i stopped reading half way through, i don't have time for repeat lessons from someone who thinks they are a scholar
@MrLampoon, if you live off the federal minimum wage you would earn $13k a year excluding the cost of healthcare, state taxes, and other taxes. That means you have about $11k if for some reason you don’t have to pay those costs. Food average is 2.6k per person, gas to and from work is probably around $1k if thats all you do, this leaves you with 7.4k to spend on housing. The average cost per year for housing is 14.4k. So you are $7k in the negative. Now lets assume you could find a house within your budget to not go negative. The house rent would need to cost about $610 a month for you to break even. At this point any more money you spend would put you in debt. So even if you got a house for $610, you would have no utilities and nothing else.
@Dephenistrator, but raising wages doesnt make much sense if wage increase per year is less than inflation per year. That just means you are losing money slower, but you are still losing money. Your purchasing power would still be decreasing. I am unsure of why you think that i dont want minimum wage to go up. I do, just a more dynamic approach.
@Implicit88, I'm starting to think you aren't comprehending what I'm saying. I never said you didn't want to raise minimum wages, all the jerks here are accusing me of saying that. I am saying increasing minimum wage by nearly 50% in two years is bad. I'm saying it has to be incremental and calculated and three people have jumped my throat over that.
@Dephenistrator, my bad. Agreed.
@Implicit88, i apologize for getting sharp. I let frustration get the better of me there.
@Dephenistrator, its cool no hard feeling, until we disagree again (lol)
@Implicit88, friends until next time, then friends again preferably
@Dephenistrator, they can reduce the billions of profit so they won’t need to lay workers off but they wouldn’t because of shareholders
@Unkle77, there's alot of fantasy reasons they would cut their profits first but only fantasy
I don't need to comment because most comments here already said it all, good job everyone
@Medic135, high five! ✋
@I Are Lebo, 🖐️
You'd think they'd appreciate their jobs considering almost the entire industry could be automated tomorrow.
@TheyCallMeTaterSalad, and a machine wouldn’t forget my damn sauce every time
@Jolee Bindo, nor would it consistently fúck up my order.
@Jolee Bindo, and I can go in and make changes to the burger.... light Ketchup, extra bacon, extra patty.... It's all so much easier to just use the machine.
@TheyCallMeTaterSalad, dont worry, your job will come soon too
@Jolee Bindo, as long as it's not like the fvcking ice cream machine, that damn thing seems to always be broken.
@Aegislash, as long as all the jobs go at once and it's like the permanent vacation tech in endless space
Can't get laid off if you quit
Demands $15 an hour to do a simpleton’s job. Wonders why they get let off because corporate can’t afford to pay employees that much
You think that they won't already replace them with machines as soon as they can regardless of wages. But people will say it'll make it happen sooner, no it's going to happen as soon they can make it work if it'll save them a few pennies.
@Formless, The technology is available and inexpensive for a giant corporation. They're trying to keep up their PR. As soon as being looked at as shjtty outweighs how much they're paying people within the week they are going to start remodeling stores and firing people across the country.
@TheyCallMeTaterSalad, yeah I'm not buying that, they've launched pr campaigns to convince the public of everything under god's green earth for profit. Also McDonald's is already looked at as pretty crappy, apparently working there to serve people food is the most embarrassing job possible, followed by pretty much any other fast food place. Funny how people should feel embarrassed about putting in a day's labor
Corporate doesn’t layoff people at the stores, because affiliates own the stores. They layoff their own vps and svps. But people against higher wages don’t want you to know that.
@ios11, corporate tells the manager how many people they can have. Your premise is incorrect.
They don’t have to lay off specific individuals to lay off people.
@I Are Lebo, corporate does not tell a franchise how many people that have to have. They give recommendations. And if a franchise wants to have 50 people on staff at all times and pay them $15 each, that’s uo to the franchise. The only thing they mandate is the price of food, the national product placement that companies have bought, cleanliness and the look of the establishment.
@ios11, that depends often on the company. It depends on whether the stores are run by individual franchisees that buy the store from the company, or by the company itself. Yum Brands certainly has nothing to do with individual employees at a Taco Bell, but not every fast food franchise is run like that, let alone every company.
Corporate replaces you with machine.
I mean if the minimum wage kept up with inflation it'd be a little over $10 an hour. And if it kept up with productivity (liked it used up until about 1970) then it'd be a little over $20 an hour.
Yeah this is true and my reasoning for the inflation is spotty at best in my previous comments. After some real research I've learned that the relationship of increasing minimum wage and inflation is yet unproven, meaning neither of us is right. The current theory is that by increasing minimum wage drastically enough you are closing out small business owners and specialized laborers who were working at/paying someone the new minimum wage. These people would either be fired or prices would inflate to accommodate them. Honestly it would most likely be the former leaning towards your arguments. But that could still be bad, especially for the specialized laborer who only knows his one skill that no longer pays above minimum wage.
If you are mad at a large corporation, show them the middle finger and start your own!
What? You wanna go back to the minimum wage conformity and waking up at 7 am? You appreciate your weekends more than a higher salary? Don't like all the stress? Welcome back!