Nothing is free
@Jolee Bindo, 🌈 opportunity cost 🌈
@Jolee Bindo, they say free because people don’t understand. Like the same way calling the police is free. Any homeless guy can call with there Obama phone the police- it’s free — aka “paid for by tax paying citizens because it’s in our interest to have law & order.” That being said , i would argue it’s in our nations interest for everyone to have health care. & it’s interesting anytime any positive change is brought up Millions of dollars from the health care / insurance industry say ,” no! Medicare for all bad! Long wait times! Socialism ! Cuba! Marx! Trust us, the insurance companies…. Trust us , don’t change anything.”
@Monter408, it's not in my best interest in America, land of the obese, to be paying for everyones heart attacks or because they can't stop eating.
@Mag3rPayne, what if,,, we helped them before they are obese. … like when they are children…. .
We literally subsidized a foreign military for 20 years. But helping our fellow Americans. Nahhh that’s gay.
@Monter408, are you gonna tell them they can't eat what they want, drink what they want, or smoke what they want? The information is out there to learn from. You can't force people to diet and exercise. I agree that we spend way to much on war and foreign aid, and we should spend more on home issues, but we can't help people if they don't want to help themselves. That is the lesson we just learned in Afghanistan isn't it?
@Mag3rPayne, damn it if we can put anti-smoking ads on TV we can put anti fat ads on TV that show us what being fat does to the heart and how detoxifying your organs can increase your energy and improve brain function and the immune system
@Good Pineapple Pizza, we spent years saying fat people are healthy, now they are allowed to say "perfectly healthy people" are dying of covid, when in reality when you actually look into it they are overweight.
@Monter408, here’s the thing. I’m 28. I had to pay sky rocketed premiums when Obama care came out to pay for those who don’t wanna work. And then to boot I couldn’t get decent healthcare because doctors in my area were booked 4 weeks out. It sounds great if you’re on the other side of it. But for me it was a trash decision.
@Monter408, I'm on socialized Healthcare through the VA ask a local veteran how the government is doing taking care of us.
@Jolee Bindo, its really a single payer system. People have done stupid things by calling it free. A single payer system is way cheaper, even right wing analyst have reported on it. But of course its become a political debate instead of following the data. Much like how we spend more and more on the military which makes us no safer and costs and extraordinary amount in order to provide govt sponsored jobs.
@Implicit88, the data doesnt show this.
@JoeJoestar, that’s the insurance companies choice. They’d have raised rates regardless; you notice how they didn’t lower premium prices when the mandatory coverage part was revoked.
@Jolee Bindo, if they raise my taxes by 5.7%, then I’ll still be paying less for healthcare.
@Good Pineapple Pizza, those already exist asshole. I saw them my whole childhood. Didn’t fix a thing.
@CapnVulmorg, actually, you are wrong. The implementation of Obamacare raised the average insurance plan by 4x in an instant. It was not going to do that already.
@Jolee Bindo, they don’t mean fee without cost. They mean free as in they don’t have to pay directly out of pocket for it.
@Mag3rPayne, *additional taxes and fees may apply
Longer wait times in emergency care
@sploot, sky high taxes
@Sexy Homunculus, buddy of mine moved home to England for a new job/to be with family. His job matched his pay exactly (accounting for exchange rate- so technically more per hour) and he said he brings home half as much after taxes. And that's saying a lot because he lived in New York before crossing back over the pond
@sploot, not true they have similar if not shorter wait times
@Drunk Pantless Uncle, that's a hard oof...
@sploot, I’d love to see where you got this data from. What research data did you use to come to this conclusion.
@foenix, “ever since they introduced universal health care, wait times have exploded. I used to get an appointment the same day I called. Now the disgusting poors can go to the doctor too. Now I have to wait 3 days. Sure,,, you might say ,””now that everyone has access to healthcare, we should hire more doctors & encourage more people to work in the Health care field to meet the demand””….. but that’s exactly what the poors would think. “
@Monter408, dang dirty poors ruining my healthcare
@sploot, damn and I was once there for four hours with my uncle who was openly bleeding out of a cut the length of his forearm
@Sexy Homunculus, they tax empty rooms in living arrangements in the UK to pay for their welfare state, no thank you. I hate America’s welfare state as it is, I want nothing more added to the bloated monstrosity.
@Sexy Homunculus, i too would rather pay 3k more a year for worse care than pay more in taxes, but still less than private insurance, for better care. -sarcasm
@Sexy Homunculus, no life crippling hospital bills I can play this game too
@eleven, I recommend a culling of the current guard and super super super harsh anti corruption and bribery laws
@eleven, you don’t need crippling hospital bills if you just buy health insurance in America. Everyone can afford it, but people can’t budget their money properly.
@eleven, They wouldn't be bad if the government stayed out of Healthcare, and if people had insurance. I have $7400 in hospital bills, thanks to my insurance.
Ah yes, because everything else our government handles is so well implemented, and free of waste and corruption. I’m sure this will be no different in its stellar outcome.
@DesignatedElfWhipper, I dont know what your talking about. We definitely need like 20 people overseeing a single transaction. Those 20 people also need atleast 1 assistant to go get them coffee. Of course these people need to be paid 30 dollars an hour with full benefits and retire at 40 with full pension.
@CocoasBro, it’s still cheaper to pay 20 people and their assistants to oversee each transaction than to pay one insurance company CEO, and I wouldn’t have a deductible.
@CapnVulmorg, not at the end when you multiply by the 300 million other transactions that 40 people have to watch over.
I’ll agree that government run healthcare is a good idea when you name the government program that’s not already horribly run
@BigJohnson86, exactly. We should defund the military as well.
@Implicit88, Of course, because defunding the police has worked out so well across the nation.
@KermitSmash, if the criteria to have the government run something is based on whether the government can spend money right. Then the military is a perfect example of wasteful spending.
@KermitSmash, military should become private like insurance and people can give their money to it much like healthcare.
@BigJohnson86, lots of government programs are run decently enough, like Medicare and Medicaid for instance. Having everyone pay taxes into a nationwide program that would provide health insurance to all people shouldn’t even be up for debate when people are dying in this country from lack of access to health care and/or affordable medications (see insulin rationing as an example). The US is the only nation in the Western World without Universal Healthcare and to be honest, it’s an embarrassment.
@Implicit88, I served 9 years and can confirm waste is rampant. But that’s because of large amounts of bureaucracy. There are entire industries that exist because a company got a long term government contract. This kinda crap is exactly why I want government out of healthcare entirely. Half of medical spending is just to meet current government regulations. Slice that off and we’d have affordable healthcare available.
@Block1187, bro those programs are awful. I spent 2 years working in Medicare and they are horribly inefficient. Those 2 programs alone account for 1/3 of our current budget. They supply about 20% of the population. So we’d have to double everyone’s taxes just to pay for the socialized healthcare.
People aren’t dying from lack of access to healthcare. That’s a disingenuous argument. It’s illegal for a hospital to turn you away until you’ve received necessary treatment and Medicaid covers those who are unable to afford insurance. All you have to do is jump through the hoops they require.
@BigJohnson86, No, it’s not a disingenuous argument, hospitals cannot turn you away if you need emergency treatment, but if you have a chronic disease (such as cancer or diabetes) and you cannot afford your prescriptions for one reason or another, you are sol. People have died and are continuing to die because they cannot afford insulin (as an example) that is a well documented fact. And, let’s look at different fact for a moment, which is that even when hospitals don’t turn you away for treatment you cannot afford, they bill you tens or even hundreds of thousands dollars instead, and because of legal loopholes, exceptions, coverage caps, etc. people end up being crippled by debt they will never be able to pay, which destroys credit scores and leaves people unable to buy cars, get a mortgage, even in some cases successfully rent an apartment. And that seems like a good system to you? Because the alternative is “inefficient.” Let me ask you, if you got into a serious car accident
@BigJohnson86, tomorrow and suffered a head injury that put you into a coma for a week, and left you with a permanent disability, do you think your health insurance would cover all of it? If you’re in the vast majority of Americans, the answer is absolutely not, and that outstanding bill is gonna cripple you financially for the rest of your life. So, in essence, I just tend to believe that a system which puts you one hospital stay away from bankruptcy is a rotten system, and I don’t think much needs to be said on how health insurance companies regularly screw over their customers ether in the name of greed. But, by all means, “inefficiency” is a great reason to keep our current life-destroying system in place…
@BigJohnson86, I would also like to take a moment to point out some notions about the cost of universal health care. 1.) you wouldn’t need to massively increase taxes, simply moving around money from other places would do well enough to fund the program (such as our massively inflated defense budget, the amount of money we give to foreign nations for various purposes, etc.) 2.) when you factor in that you wouldn’t be paying a copay or a monthly premium for private health insurance anymore, the costs really start to even out a bit. 3.) perhaps I am just being a bleeding heart here, but I think everything I said in my previous comment about the horrendous state of our current system justifies even a doubling of tax rates to avoid bankrupting, financially crippling, and actually killing people as our current system does. As for the inefficiencies in Medicaid that currently exist, they can, and in the case of a universal system, would be fixed.
@Block1187, bro this whole long thing is a trip. You wanna “move money around” to cover expenses? We have half the money we need just to pay for it if we give it all to healthcare and spend no money on anything else. The doubling of taxes is a generous estimate. How on earth are you gonna move it around to pay for it?
We have Medicaid for people that cannot afford insurance and children. If you decide not to get it and then suddenly have a heart attack or cancer so your stuck holding a massive bill that’s on you. If you’re not even poor and just refuse to get insurance that’s on you. I’ve got insurance. My max out of pocket is more than a months pay. That would really hurt and take a long time to pay off but I won’t be bankrupt. I encourage you to research group health plans if you think the average person can’t get insurance. Get together with your job, church, social club or whatever you do and you can get a group insurance plan at a decent rate because there’s a lot of people
@BigJohnson86, The problem isn’t the accessibility of health insurance in this instance, it’s the cost of health care relative to what health insurance covers. Middle income Americans do not make enough to cover out of pocket sudden emergencies, and health insurance companies more often than not will cap their coverage at a certain point, leaving the person to foot the rest of the bill. Also, on the topic of Medicaid, the American welfare state as a whole is designed to keep people in poverty by immediately revoking benefits at a certain income threshold which is lower than what is necessary to pay for those benefits without assistance, meaning it is often the middle class who get screwed the most by health insurance, since they make too much to be eligible for assistance, but not enough to life-altering medical emergencies or chronic illnesses. Now factor into that the cost of prescriptions and it’s a whole other problem. Essentially what I see is that you are defending a system which
@BigJohnson86, prioritizes the greed of the health care/health insurance companies over the access and affordability of health care. Again I will say, the US is the only nation in the Western world that lacks universal health care, and it is frankly embarrassing considering the US is such a profoundly wealthy nation. And yes, we absolutely do have enough money to pay for a universal health insurance program, heck, just create a tax equivalent to the average health insurance monthly premium and apply it universally and you would have the funds right there. But as I said before, money could also be redirected into a program to provide coverage for all Americans, the federal government spends a good deal of money on military spending and foreign aid, that for starters is money better spent to make sure diabetics aren’t dying of lack of insulin, but I digress.
@Block1187, I know I'm probably jumping in to a debate that is already finished but I have a few views I wanna put out here, and I wanna preface this by saying I'm not opposed to aid programs, in fact I have medicaid though I only have it because i was in college in flint during the water crisis. My first point is that I don't trust that even a simple majority of the money paid into a socialized Healthcare system would even make it to Healthcare, here in Michigan just since I can remember they have raised our gas tax, cost of registration, hunting licenses, property tax, and I'm sure there are a few others that I'm not thinking of at the moment claiming they would use the funds to fix the roads, and there are still many places that they have just been filling potholes with dirt and calling it a fix.
@Block1187, secondly my family has been screwed over by programs like that, my father used to work for FedEx and had Healthcare that required no copay and coverd 100% of the bill, after threat of a fine for offering a "Cadillac Healthcare plan" his insurance then changed to require a $5000 copay on a hospital stay and then only covered 80%, thankfully most hospitals will write off your bill if you fill out a form showing you can't pay it (i had to do that just last year after a car wreck) as they can write that off on taxes, and no that doesn't trash your credit score (my lowest of the 3 is still a 720.)
Yeah.... this wasn’t funny.
If you bring politics that’s fine but... please make it funny.
They got the labels wrong. The US and EU labels should be flipped because Europeans don’t understand that universal healthcare is paid via with tax dollars requiring the “trustworthy” government to take more pf your heard earned money.
*inhales deeply* we pay so much for healthcare because the rest of the world is mooching off our medical research!
@RepostSniper, No, we pay so much for healthcare because our health care system is privatized and profit-oriented. Our health care system doesn’t exist to give people access to quality health care, it exists to generate as much revenue as possible, most of which of course ends up in the pockets of executives and shareholders. There is absolutely zero sense in having a private health care system that literally lets people die because they cannot afford treatment. The US is the only nation in the Western World without a socialized health care system, the US is also notably the unhealthiest nation in the Western World.
@Block1187, No, we pay so much because the government got involved, and prevented proper competition in Healthcare. It was way better before Obama screwed us over.
You also neglect to note that the US both is, and funds the defense of many if not all of the nations that have socialized Healthcare. So that would explain how those countries can afford that crap.
Just saying, if we had "free" healthcare I wouldn't have gotten to go to one of the best orthopedic surgeons in the country for a break because he was a few minutes closer by helicopter. My particular break required an operation to be done in 6 hours or I could never walk again. I have a feeling I wouldn't have reached that deadline.
@Papyru, in Alberta Canada, I fell down my stairs, er doctor thought I was just sprained my ankle after xray showed nothing, said take it easy follow up with your family doctor in week... long weekend, couldn't get in till wed (should have been in sunday) family doc said ya, we need to look more, redid trays, and ultrasound on Thursday, follow up 2 weeks later...
3 weeks in I found out I has torn ligaments and the family doc said I would have qualified for surgery, but it was too late now...
I still cant walk right, who knows if I ever will again...
But hey, at least it's all free right?
@phalcon , I'm so sorry that happened to you. I had a sprained ankle with a broken ligament (i somehow managed to snap it instead of tearing it) and they did an x-ray which showed nothing. They still gave me a brace and had me follow up 2 days later with my PCP. This was urgent care, by the way, not the ER. She checked me out, determined I needed to try physical therapy before trying surgery, but the PT helped. I had actually just finished said PT when I broke that same ankle.
But like I said, I had one of the best surgeons in the world working on me. And not only did he put it on, he allowed the surgery to go 2 hours longer just to make sure that his incisions were as small as possible. I just can't see an overworked, underpaid government employee having that kind of care. And he also intends to take a little longer when he takes my frame off to do some plastic surgery to prevent the scars from being too horrible. I may have some debt, but it'll be almost like it never happened.
@Papyru, irony is I am a government employee in health care lol... we do get paid decently here as paramedics, 25 to start for primary, 34hr for advanced. Us/emt/paramedic equivalent... though our primary care paramedics. Are closer to EMT-I level. Than us basic emt level.
And let's not forget, you get choice... here we just get the doctor given to us. Or the doctor the family doctor recommends us to...
And we waste lots of money on things too... no accountability for how its spent...
And just for fun I compared per per cost in canada vs us...
Per per, canadian health care cost 3x as much as the us military per person does...
Imagine implementing health care in us, to even be canadian level, imagine adding 3x military to the budget...
Everywhere goes more and more into debt.... province, feds... it's all a house of cards that one day will come crashing down...
@phalcon , my biggest gripe, is that Canadians pay for Healthcare, is not free. Alberta got rid of this when the oil sand were still making money, but I think in most provinces, people pay a monthly fee (or once every 3 months) and... generally pay half of their health benefits (vision/dental/chiro/therapy/etc.) Split with employer.
I'm not sure how European countries really work, but I've paid for Healthcare my whole life in Canada.
@werp zerp snickel, well we all have. It's not really "free"
But budget wise 38-43% of every province budget is for health care. The single largest budget item.
@werp zerp snickel, which means if you pay 1000 in taxes, 400 or it went to health care.
If you pay 10k in tax 4k to health... 20k... 8k etc..
I'm closer to 35 to 40k myself...
So 14k or so to health care...
@phalcon , I re-read my wording. I'm not upset about paying for the Healthcare, it's always reading that canada and European countries have free Healthcare. We still need to get health insurance for anything non hospital/family doctor related, and we did use to pay a bill. I think it was $144 every 3 months, for every resident over 18. I'm not sure how much Health insurance in the states costs, but I'm sure it can be fairly reasonable.
@werp zerp snickel, I pay around $350/mo for Healthcare in the US. It just went up, again. That's for a low tier. If I got the good stuff, I'd have to cut out a lot of nessecities. It's not horrible, and not 30%, but it's no beuno.
Or we could have health care . The same way everyone pays taxes for police & firefighters— healthcare can be the same. Everyone pays- everyone has access.
@Monter408, too logical. We need to make healthcare as expensive as possible for poor people and in addition bomb any country for oil in the name of safety.
@Andred, you’re right, f*ck the poor people and the people rationing their insulin, if they pulled themselves up by the bootstraps they would absolutely be able to get access to quality health care. Oh, and health care should definitely be profit oriented, because there’s absolutely nothing unethical about making money off of life saving health care and letting people who cannot pay die.
@Block1187, This but Unironically
Except for the part at the end, since hospitals cannot allow someone to die because of their inability to pay.
@Papyru, if you cannot afford treatment (medications in particular) for a chronic illness (like cancer or diabetes) you will die. Hospitals cannot turn away emergency cases, they cannot let people physically die where they can intervene, but they also don’t have to provide long term health care to people who are chronically ill who have no way to pay for it. Setting that aside, they can still bankrupt you by charging to for the treatments you cannot afford, and that carries with it a host of other problems. The essential point is that a profit-centric privatized health care system is rotten to the core and doesn’t work for the benefit of the public.
@Block1187, If you can't afford them, you're doing something wrong. Medicare will pay for most of it if you are really that poor, but a lot of people in the US just live outside their means. You can make 50k a year and still not be able to afford medications if your rent is $2000 a month. Another thing is that this is only really happening in big cities due to high cost of living. The people I feel sorry for are the children of irresponsible adults.
@Papyru, only in big cities? Thats not what the data says. Its happening across the entire usa.
@Implicit88, Sorry, it's happening in metropolitan areas too. Forgot to mention that.