If you count the government making health insurance pay for everything then yea healthcare in the US is bad. We still have the best cancer survival rates and still create over 50% of all new cures
@PoliticalOtters, yes you're right. But the people who benefit from those survival rates and cures and dont have the right insurance are then thrown into massive debt that they will never be able to pay off
@TLabs , on behalf of America, I apologise. We'll just go ahead and stagnate that entire sector by incentivizing the lack of research.
@Needless Contrarian, that right there, that attitude is why it's so hard to make a change in America. Every time someone points out how the system might be flawed it's taken to the extreme. "You dont like the way this country works? Then get the hell out. You found a few holes in the system? I guess you just wanna shut the whole thing down, dont you." I love this country and I think it's the best country in the world. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else but just because we have a system in place that works for the most part doenst mean there aren't people that get stepped on or that it cant be improved. I'm not saying we should stop saving people's lives, I'm saying people shouldn't have to go broke because their life was able to be saved.
@PoliticalOtters, too bad the people of these cures are charged more than every other country
@PoliticalOtters, I love when people tout America's cancer survival rate but ignores the fact that our outcomes for pretty much any other illness are worse than other first-world countries.
@PoliticalOtters, yup anyone who has worked in healthcare knows this. The downside of free market healthcare. The incentive that keeps insurance offering a large variety of plans and pharma companies spending billions on research is the same incentive that leads to disgustingly high prices. Everyone overcharges for medical care since insurance companies get billed and theyre less likely to cover things. the victim is the patient. theyre scared and sick and get treated for anything insurance covers, hurt the insurance company which retaliates by raising costs and reducing coverage.
@PoliticalOtters, long story short: the biggest problem in american healthcare is price regulation.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
@Fac3pa1m, You mean the outcomes are worse even though we dump vastly more money into the system than most other countries?
Seems like a good argument against increasing spending on healthcare.
@robee, not just pricing, oversight in general. If the reimbursements to providers aren't correct, that's a hefty fine, like 20 million hefty. Think the companies just eat those? Nope, it gets passed along to the premiums. Insurance is heavily regulated, having to jump through so many hoops means higher costs, which drives up the price. Sure, we need some regulation and oversight, but we've clearly passed the amount the public is willing to pay for.
@PoliticalOtters, yeah the way things are now, more spending just leads to more of the same. What we need is restructuring, but good luck with threatening to hurt the bottom line of one of americas biggest businesses/political funders.
@Steve the cat, I agree 100%, insurance companies get the bill and it gets passed along to the patients. The regulation needs to be in the price of the medical care itself, a med that costs $20 to make for example shouldn't be billed to insurance at a 200% upcharge.
@robee, there are things people can do: Shop around for cheaper medications and health services, promote preventive care practices, smuggle insulin in from Canada and Mexico. Routine stuff.
@robee, this is true.
I would add that it should be market forces that drive it down. There are way too many nonsensical barriers to entry into the medical market because of the FDA
@robee, pharma is another discussion altogether. Typically you're paying for the R&D costs, which is why they get a few years before a generic can be sold. Regulation also drives up drug costs and why it takes forever to get to the market in the US.
Personally I think all rx drugs should be over the counter. What business is it of the gov't if I want to self medicate?
@TLabs , That's the price to pay, either go into debt or die. That's the best way us humans have discovered to get the best treatment for deadly diseases, sounds crappy but at least you're not dead. Comparatively tons of other countries are inferior in their treatments of diseases, some having to ration healthcare to the point where committees decide on the care you can receive or simply basing it totally on the money you have. There are a ton of issues that must be solved, just irks me when the American system which revolutionizes medicinal treatment yearly is crapped on because even though it's the best, it's far from perfect. Seems unfair too considering how large and diverse the US is, if you look up the numbers we deal and treat a toooon of diseases very effectively.
@PoliticalOtters, universal healthcare would cost less than we currently spend. The Koch brothers own study showed a net savings.
@PoliticalOtters, because people incorporate in the US. That has nothing to do with sales. America has like, what? 6% of the world population?
@Fac3pa1m, it’s a flawed study based on Medicare for all. Medicare is falsely kept lower by being subsidized by private insurance.
@PoliticalOtters, if u look at the overall quality of healthcare vs pay ratio we aren’t on top. You can cherry pick one point but that doesn’t tell the full story. Just to note we are in sixth place for cancer rates, thats really bad.
@Needless Contrarian, u can incentivize research other ways. They will still be selling to other countries and the usa (lower rate). Believe it or not, most people dont want to cure cancer to make money.
@big freedom, the goal of insurance companies is to make money, not provide care. This goes for car insurance, phone insurance, property insurance. On your point, even the right wing group said it would save us 2-3 trillion over 10 years....
@Implicit88, based on CBO budget which is off by hundreds of Billions on ACA.
You are correct. Goal of ins co is to make a profit. Multiple competing companies in a free market creates a healthy competition and drives innovation. Single payer provides no incentive to innovate and creates an unbreakable bureaucracy.
I’ll never understand how anyone can put their faith in a system that has absolutely no recourse for failure.
@PoliticalOtters, that line about preventative care makes a huge difference. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Boys and girls please eat healthy, exercise and limit the use of tobacco and alcohol. Lung cancer is #2 in this country right behind heart disease for the most deaths. Many of these cases could have been prevented and kept healthcare costs down as many are unable to afford the treatment. Thank you.
@PoliticalOtters, I don’t know man, if I’m literally suffering and dying, I probably won’t be window shopping my HMO. I just want to not die. Healthcare isn’t just a normal free market commodity, because you’re playing with peoples lives as currency. That’s super unethical and downright evil imo.
@griffinstorme, right if its an emergency you probably won't shop around. That's what insurance is supposed to be used for, but what % of your medical interactions are pure emergencies?
Most medical expenses aren't life or death and most people don't shop around. In fact, they often go to the more expensive place because it's where the doctor recommends. It's a purchaser-payer disconnect issue
@PoliticalOtters, it’s utter nonsense to put that burden on sick people. It’s taking advantage of the vulnerable and it’s despicable.
@griffinstorme, why is it nonsense to put the burden on a non-emergency issue on the person and their relatives?
@griffinstorme, we place the burden on people to find food when its non-emergency hunger, thirst, unemployment, etc.
@big freedom, competition does not mean lower cost or better service. Healthcare/insurance structure cost more and pool size decreases. Usually the opposite of what happens to normal goods.
@PoliticalOtters, that’s not nearly the same thing. We’re not talking about cosmetic surgeries. We’re talking about conditions that cause people pain or if left untreated will indeed become emergency issues or kill them or later on be harder to treat.
@Implicit88, that is simply not true. Private insurance or employer paid insurance before ACA was driven by market demand. A company that can choose between 3 or 4 providers will go with the lower cost, or better or more efficient.
Regulations have eliminated that ability and granted monopolies to a couple government subsidized companies.
We’ve had this same discussion many times.
@big freedom, some lower cost plans went away but thats because the insurance was pathetic. It basically made a lower end standard. There are still many insurance companies around. Many...
@Implicit88, we’ve spent billions of dollars to insure 10million people. 20 million people now uninsured. We could literally have bought every single uninsured person a premium insurance account and still spent less money. Government needs to get out of insurance and healthcare all together. Period. Hard stop. It is least effective and least efficient way to run an industry.
@big freedom, that's actually backwards. Tax dollars go to private insurance companies for Medicare/Medicaid plans. Private insurance companies are making money from tax dollars.
@Fac3pa1m, Medicare/Medicaid IS subsidized by profits insurance companies get from private (non government) issued insurance. While the private insurance has been allowed to keep more profits while socializing losses (thanks Obama). Medicare costs are artificially kept low because of private insurance.
*laughs in Canadian*
@Fuggles, thought i could smell flapjacks and maple syrup
@Fuggles, *laughter ceases in remembrance of dental bills*
@Fuggles, if you honestly think The Canadian health system is any better, you need to look up the average wait time for treatment in Canada. Normal treatment is around 6 months and people have died waiting to get admitted to the ER.
@ Michishige Shou, oh the Canadian system is far from perfect, but essentially all of the developed countries agree that America’s system is pretty much the worst. Thus the laughter.
The truth we already knew
So much of it is spent paying for Medicare patients that treat the ER as their personal clinic.
And it’s because reimbursement rates for MCD are so poor that providers can’t afford to give them decent primary care.
People don’t want to go to the ER for routine crap, they just don’t have a better option.
@A Deformed Penis, you're right Medicaid, my bad. I still believe that it is greatly abused. I've seen an 11 y/o who's been there 50 times, and countless others with similar stories. In the case of that 11 y/o they're just being raised to go to the Emergency room for every minor cough, scrape, or headache.
@rnf73, It is inappropriate, but they’re dumb, so don’t know what needs medical care and what doesn’t (which is also why they can’t get a job that had good benefits), and don’t have access to primary care to meet their needs, which includes education as to when one does & does not need to see a doctor.
For as much as those BS ED visits are annoying, they don’t actually use very many resources.
@A Deformed Penis, individually no, they do not require many resources. But when we get inundated with them then that causes a backup, and then they get angry it took so long for their results to get back. Then the staff has to worry about negative online reviews because the review doesn't ask if you came in for cardiac arrest or if you came in for a sore throat. And the sore throat people can't just be discharged because it's now unethical to prescribe antibiotics without doing a throat swab.
@rnf73, some people abuse the system, that is why revising it would be helpful. Ways to revise the program could include charges for not being admitted to the hospital. Health goals that must be met or you get charged a premium. There are really a ton of reasonable goals and ways we can revise our system to a single payer system so no one has to die because they cant afford insulin or a surgery.
@Implicit88, a federal bureaucracy telling me I have to be healthy or else. This is the same government that decided sugar and carbs should make up the bulk of your diet btw.
I’ll never understand how people put so much faith in a group that has no consequences for being wrong.
@big freedom, private insurances already have a fat tax at a lot of employers. Again the system would need to be revised with updated research and by actual nutritionist and scientist. 80+% of the population still believes dumb this like eating cholesterol gives u high cholesterol and fat makes you fat. Truth be told, only two ways to lose weight scientifically, Ketosis and Breathing.
@Implicit88, they believe this because of a government run campaign that told them for 60 years what to eat and they had it completely wrong.
I can freely choose to take part in employer paid insurance or chose to work somewhere else. And they have that clause in there because of ACA. Free market would be better, cheaper, more efficient
Finishing up my masters in healthcare admin and my favorite quote, “healthcare is not a right it’s a commodity”.
“Works in healthcare”, not a doctor, nurse, or other named allied professional...
He’s either an administrator, who are the backbone of fvcking up medical care, or a janitor or some shjt, which is a noble trade but hardly makes one an authority on the zillion moving part machine that is American healthcare.
@A Deformed Penis, I'm currently in training to be a specialized subset of PA for anesthesiology, so you can kindly bugger off.
@rnf73, PA definitely falls under “other named allied professional”.
PAs rock. I just didn’t feel like listing every title under the sun...
@A Deformed Penis, ohh and I still scribe, so I get that fresh taste of ER too.
Employer "did you go to the doctor?"
Me: "Yes, totally with the minimum wage you pay me, and the 20 hours you provide cause you dont want to make me full time to pay me benefits. Sure. Lets pretend I went to the doctor."
Still feels like an r/thathappened story...