I thought this app might appreciate this
Ftr; it was 6 million Jews and 5million others for a total of 11 million killed in the Holocaust.
@Miss Leading, thank you
@Miss Leading, Stalin: those are rookie numbers. You gotta pump those numbers up
@Jascha Heifetz, yikes
@Miss Leading, allegedly..
@Enemy Twinkie, nah it’s pretty well documented
@Miss Leading, is this actually true? I thought it was 6 million of Jews, homosexuals, and disabled. So you're telling me it was 6 million Jews AND 5 million of the others? How come I never heard of this? It was also never mentioned in my GCSE history from what I remember. I've always only ever seen it as 6 million of everyone
@Jipz, I took holocaust history for a semester a few years back. That number has been cemented in my head for years. But i just looked it up to confirm, and i was wrong.
Its 6 million Jews and 11 million others. I wasn’t counting the Soviet citizens and POW’s. 17 mil total persecuted in the holocaust.
@Miss Leading, oh jesus christ. So it's almost triple of what most people actually think. God damn.
@Jipz, the 6 million figure is just the one that sticks in people’s minds, and when the Holocaust is taught it usually focuses on the Jewish aspect of it
@Miss Leading, you are misinformed. The casualty rate of the concentration camps was about 12 million. 6 million Jews (most of which died between 1939 and 1941), and another 6 million of gays, cripples, gypsies, and dissenters.
I've tried having this conversation with people before about how some of the most evil people in history were probably exactly like this, but no one is able to understand what I mean. We're so attached to the idea of simple good and evil that we cant entertain the idea of a genuinely good human committing the most horrific acts of violence. It's all perspective and the human mind is capable of rationalizing just about anything. I thought this app might appreciate this picture, and more than anything else I want to hear your view
@I Am Captain Obvious, ok captain obvious
@I Am Captain Obvious, alot of people refuse the truth out of fear. The most comforting thing is knowing who the enemy is and where they are. The facts are that anyone you see, meet, or know, could in fact be the person next to do the unspeakable. People will single out people with traits to feel safe. The number 1 thing people want to know after a tragedy is why. There has to be some sort of reason. Yall already know how video games and music were targeted because there just has to be a reason. "No one could just do horrible things without a reason, right?" You are very much right, the people who do these things were at one point just like the rest of us, and thats probably one of the most terrifying things in this life. People are always capable of doing amazing wonderful things just as they are capable of terrible things.
@I Am Captain Obvious, there was a fantastic writing prompt i found where a person would develop abilities diametrically opposed to their personality, the cruel can heal and the kind can harm. The best response i read was where a healer became a torturer that would fix the damage to prolong the torture, even "slipping" and botching the healing to leave the victim permanently disfigured.
Human history shows our nature to be unfortunately cruel.
@I Am Captain Obvious, this is the reason I am so frightened of authoritarian identity politics. Nobody thinks of themselves at Hitler. They all think they’re Churchill. Or Lincoln. Perspective is a bitch and it’s easy to commit atrocities when you’re so completely convinced you have a firm grasp on who the good guys and bad guys are. It’s our basic tribal nature, and it doesn’t help because the reality is ALWAYS more complicated than that.
@I Am Captain Obvious, I don't think there are Victor's in war, only those more fortunate to survive. War is when two opposing ideas become strong enough that people want to take life for it.
"This land belongs to us" - ok but it really doesn't in the big picture.
"These religious beliefs are wrong" - sure but so are yours in their eyes. It's all arbitrary.
What I'm saying is there's always two sides to a coin, unfortunately only one side is commonly seen as that's the side the Victor's show the world. Add that with the fact that people have a sheep mentality, and you have mass belief in false truths. World history in college really opened my eyes to how $hitty first world countries are to lesser developed countries. The worst part of it is that most people in first world countries don't understand it because they don't seek to.
@I Am Captain Obvious, some people are just ignorant and uninterested in facts and knowledge. Jeffrey Dahmer the cannibal serial killer, when caught, friends and family were “shocked”. He was well liked and even had friends and neighbors as guest into his home for dinner. Nobody suspected. A lot of serial killers, who actually with their bare hands killed, and Hitler simply used his voice. Even they have shown a shred of kindness to many. Even their own children or family. Perhaps shrouded behind a mask, but possible yet still.
@I Am Captain Obvious, that’s how history always manages to repeat itself.
@I Am Captain Obvious, oh! This is called the “just world” theory. It’s the theory that people believe that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. It’s what leads to victim blaming in lots of things, I.e. sexual assault. In reality, bad things happen to everyone and it’s often random. We just don’t want to accept that no matter how good we try to be, we can still get fvcked in a real bad way. It’s hard to live and be sane when you accept that really bad things happen to great people, and vice versa.
@pyrocyro, I think thats part of the problem and why people like this come to power. When people become comfortable with calling or “knowing” who the enemy is. They begin to lose sight of how they slowly become the thing they fight against in the name of security.
Look at 9-11. It was easy to point blame and start hating all muslims. So much so that its been a rally cry even to this day for many people here in America to profile or hate them. They’ve justified their anger by turning them all into the enemy in their mind. And without realizing it they’ve become the monster.
When someone justifies hatred towards groups of people rather than judge someone on an individual basis. They become a little more like those who took that hatred to monstrous levels.
And yes this applies to all religions and races. No group is free of people who hate. But that doesn’t mean everyone in those groups should be blamed for the actions of others.
@shnickelfritz, while I dont blame victims. There needs to be a clear line where its not blaming the victim but rather teaching them how to avoid the evils of the world.
Like going into a forest. Do you blame the bear or the person killed by it? Do we teach others steps to help prevent them from being attacked?
Theres a point where one needs to weigh if the situation could have been avoided. Then learn from it. If it was unavoidable. Then theres not much one can do. But if say, simply making plenty of noise can save your life in the forest from a bear. Then the lesson is worth speaking.
Lets ask when is it time to teach people how not to be a victim?
@I Am Captain Obvious, I have a similar conversation about this. Whenever people bring up Hitler, i'm very quick to mention how effective his actions were. I try to see how people react when you compliment someone so genuinely evil.
The thing is, he deserves respect. Not for what he did, God no! Make no mistake, he was terrible. You see, we should respect how he did it. But to respect someone doesn't mean to like them. You have to look at things broadly.
He took control of a damaged country, and took over several lands in his conquest. He killed millions, perhaps not directly, but through his charisma. He convinced his people that they were the good guys.
And we need to respect that in our history teachings. To his people, he was almost the greatest hero they've ever had. Instead, he's the closest thing to the devil on earth. But he's no devil. He was human. The devil didn't do all that. One man did.
That's why we need to respect him. To ignore that, is to ignore what people can be
@I Am Captain Obvious, we do this now more than ever. People hide behind a “team” and assign all bad things to the other team an all good things to their own team.
@I Am Captain Obvious, Don’t forget the true horror: how many smart, “good” people kept their mouths shut in order to let this happen in the first place. I mentioned in another comment that i took a class on the Holocaust.
The assignment i most remember was simple: write down the names and positions of all the Nazi hierarchy that helped orchestrate the “Final Solution” as they called it. In 2 hours only a handful of students were able to write down all the names, most of which were prefaced by the title “Dr.”. Thousands of educated people that took leadership roles in a massive operation of genocide.
@NeroSaber, very well said, but there’s another aspect to respecting competency even in evil people. You must respect a powerful enemy in order to be capable of defeating them. When you do not respect your opposition, when you do not try to understand their point of view, you will underestimate them and be more likely to be defeated by them.
@I Are Lebo, just look at the respect between some of the great commanders of the Allies and Axis. Rommel, Patton, and Montgomery had a great deal of respect for each other
@TR8R, exactly. Putting aside any moral arguments, it’s simply practical. Then there’s the civility aspect where you are self assured enough to be able to oppose someone by any means necessary, yet still respect where the person is coming from.
When you lose the respect for your opponents and dehumanize them, that’s when the atrocities start.
@I Am Captain Obvious, I might be misunderstanding you. Are you saying you can be a good person and do unspeakable acts, or did I not understand you right?
@Doodlederp1921, since good is subjective, I am saying that.
@I Am Captain Obvious, Ah.
He was a twisted human. But not psychopathic. There is a clear difference for having a twisted sense of morality versus none at all. We are all the hero of our own stories, it seems the conditions which Adolf had been living in was a common theme at the time considering the resulting crimes were committed by hundreds of thousands of loyal Nazis. This way of thinking was good to them and commonplace. Thus, crimes against humanity occured because one of the most terrible acts had been done: Dehumanization. Morality is absent when we no longer relate/sympathize/empathize and this is very dangerous. Fear festers, and the foreign becomes the hated. This is a psychological condition that will cause the ruination of humanity. Fear.
Know one another and unity through understanding shall occur. Ignorance will be the fall.
I’ve never thought about it this way and it makes me feel so ignorant (in the absolutely best way possible). I love content like this!
hitler just needed some weed
@csortof , I think some LSD would've also been in order.
Only thing I took from this is that even the evilest man in the world loved dogs. So dogs truly are the greatest thing ever
It was six million Jews, and millions more of LGBTQ individuals, Romani (you know them as "gypsy" but that is actually a pretty racist word to use), and POC. So the number was much higher than six million.
Nah honestly it’s scary because of the creepy lighting and eerie background.
No one is as clearly evil as they are in movies. There are large grey areas and even good parts to vile people. That being said, thank god hitler is dead and it's a shame it didn't happen sooner.
@Dephenistrator, I have a theory that if Hitler had died after taking France but before invading Russia, that Germany would have won the war.
@Dephenistrator, There were actually plans to assassinate Hitler, but it was ultimately decided against to prevent a more competent leader from winning the war for Germany.
@Albadactyl King, that actually makes sense
@I Are Lebo, i don't know enough about his military moves to prove or disprove this but i will hear you out
@I Are Lebo, how exactly do you see that playing out? I’m not being derisive I’m curious what your alternate history would’ve looked like
@TR8R, I believe it's because he's making the assumption that if Hitler would have died after the invasion of France then Germany wouldn't have betrayed Russia and they would have remained 2 superpowers fighting on the same side for the remainder of the war, rather than Russia joining The UK and USA as 3 superpowers fighting against Gremany.
@Jaune Arc, see I think war with Russia was inevitable for Nazi Germany. Either they would have still opened hostilities eventually or Russia would have under Stalin to curb their power. I just can’t envision Germany and Russia working together with their geopolitical differences, unless Germany completely changed their national policy after Hitler died or something.
@TR8R, my attitude was that if Göring and Himmler had taken the reigns from Hitler, it’s possible there’d have been enough motivation for them to prevent breaking the nonaggression pact with Stalin long enough to complete their goals of finishing their work on the Final Solution and consolidating European control. If they had continued Hitler’s dreams of world conquest, they’d have still been defeated, but it’s possible if the death of Hitler came about via political assassination that they’d have probably been able to get revenge, accomplish their goals, and then presided over much of Europe and North Africa with an iron fist for a few generations before being ousted.
@I Are Lebo, do you think Stalin would’ve held to the pact? I’ve seen evidence that suggests he was planning an assault of his own, but Operation Barbarossa hit while the Red Army was still scattered and unprepared. I agree that if there was no war between Russia and Germany then yes they could’ve easily taken and held Europe and Africa, probably even if the Americans joined in 1943 like they originally did
@TR8R, honestly I don’t know. There’s so many variables in this what if scenario. I spoke with my dad about this last night (he’s a history teacher who specializes in 20th century Europe). He disagreed with my theory, basically citing the same thing you did. I think it comes down to whether or not Hitler’s replacement was able to convince Stalin of their commitment to the nonaggression pact. Stalin was inwardly focused far more than outwardly, so if he thought the nonaggression pact would hold I don’t see why he’d have broken it.
This is, of course, based on the assumption that Hitler’s death didn’t cause a power vacuum and infighting among the leaders of the Third Reich. Because if that happened, their loss would have been much swifter.
@I Are Lebo, I don’t either but I love discussing this stuff. I think Himmler would’ve been able to leverage the Waffen-SS to quickly secure power and avoid much infighting, but the question is whether they would depart from Hitlers idealogy or not.
Is that at Tiergarten?
Only a person named “rookieoftheday” would say that