I Just want to want to PSA to the Americans out there that this isn't an attack on you. Maybe the wording was a bit harsh but like no country is perfect.
One area that America does relatively worse in compared to other developed countries is heathcare. Sure America is one of the leaders in medical technology and has some of the best doctors/hospitals in the world but overall on the whole healthcare statistically worse than other countries.
This isn't a compition if anyone points out flaws in my country I will for sure accept them if we can improve. For me Patroitism isn't supporting your country no matter what. Patroitism is wanting the best for your country.
I see someone saying things like stop sellings drugs nd treatments etc to Norway... Cmon is this the way we react to criticial thought. Lets work together and make things better for both sides
@bonja, we’re American, Dod Gamit, everything is a competition and we’re number one whether or not we win!
@bonja, if anything our health care system is overdeveloped. We typically have decent services and the like but god damn if it isnt expensive
@Guy Fawkes, therein lies the salve, though, doesn't it? Our medical systems are, by most standards, super advanced. But that's because, until fairly recently (in the grand scheme of things), it was also super competitive. But once things get federally mandated, not only is the extra good expensive stuff expected to be everywhere, but there's zero reason to attempt to lower that cost or work more efficiently.
Someone on a wage is incentivised to show up and perform well. If they're on a salary, "showing up" is no longer tied to their paycheck. Worse than that, starting half a century ago, we've been putting our healthcare system on tenure.
@Needless Contrarian, we start with the small stuff, by removing some restriction on insulin, dropping the cost by 66%. Our goverment puts restrictions in place to keep the prices up.
They're not trying to make a better system, they're trying to crash our current one to institute the ero/can model. A model that has shown to hurt lower and middle class people.
Lessen regulations, it's better for everyone.
@bonja, one of the main reasons we don't have universal Healthcare is so we can have more freedoms. If the government pays for Healthcare, they can ban or heavily tax what they don't like paying for in hospitals. (See several EU country's trans fats and sugar taxes for example) This actually makes me mad that the US keeps trying to ban things such as menthol cigarettes.
@bonja, As an American, it’s ok you don’t need to be nice. We’re a 3rd world country wearing a Gucci belt and conservatives seem to think it’s ok. (Our conservatives).
@MrTuxPenguin, (says the ignorant progressive constantly pushing his own bs ideas every chance he has while thinking only he has the answer)...
@bonja, whats the point of having the best healthcare if noone can afford to use it
@bonja, yeah but... this place is pretty fvckin $hitty, and we can’t even afford to leave to more developed countries 🤷♂️
@SocialChameleon, Its that trade off that I'm willing to accept.
No doubt with Universal Health Care there are some infractions on freedoms, but the trade off is the overall improvement of the health of the country.
What I hate in debates is when people shoot down UHC saying that its a worse system when on a overwhelming number of metrics is proven to better for public health (some its worse ofc), what I'd respect more is if people look at it and say hey I don't like the mandatory style of UHC and prefer to have more freedoms of choice without just coming up with false or very narrow viewed points to try and discredit UHC.
@spongeblade, It almost sounds like you agree? What are your answers? Let’s talk it out.
@SocialChameleon, You sound like we don’t elect the people in government. Why can’t we vote for the ones who support UHC and won’t tax certain things?
@MrTuxPenguin, talk it out. You're funny. You've explicitly said that only liberals have the answers and "why don't Republicans realize they're wrong when we've all told them they're wrong." And don't forget when I asked you if other people have a different opinion than you and you responded by saying no, only Donald Trump didn't agree with you (but not his tens of millions of supporters). I tried talking to you before and you can't be reasoned with. So I'll settle for calling you delusional whenever you sprout up with you're delusional bs.
@bonja, humans need to suffer more a shyt ton in order to release that working together is best.
@bonja, no let it be an attack we deserve it for letting corporations publicly stomp on us
@bonja, To further my second point. No matter how much I come at this in a non-partizan way. Looking at it specifically in numbers, statistics, and fact, I will get hate for it. People hate facts when it goes against their views and its sad to me. We can't ever progress in society if we don't work together from all aspects of society e.g. there are policies that are good from both the left and right. Co-operation, critical thought, challanging our own beliefs, statistics. These are our tools to success
There are merits to UHC and there are problems with it like almost every thing in the world. I made clear I'm not saying UHC is the clear answer but I merely state its merits in overall health care provision to the general population. For which I'm sorry on many factors is fact. Just as it is fact it causes issues on others factors. It is not a wholely terrible thing that destroys anything it touches.
@bonja, “statistically the worst health care”
I’d like to see those metrics. Me, my wife, and my child all have wonderful health care. I seriously do not know where these stats are from.
Also, we live in a society. No matter how many generations of humans attempt to create Utopia(Dystopia), it will never work. You won’t have great health care for all your citizens and be economically sound. You will be failing somewhere.
But I have paid insurance and it’s amazing.
My wife and child have government insurance and it’s amazing.
Excuse my French, for I am so baffled, but where the fuсk are you getting this from? Maybe hood rat statistics??
@Child Slapper, first of all you completely misunderstood. what you quoted was about the general healthcare compared to other developed nations not all nations (edited this reply as badly worded)
Also no doubts I see the merits in the american system and I'm sure if you can afford for good health insurance its a great system...
There are many markers however that indicate failings for the and I stress this again GENERAL POPULACE, here are some examples that can very easily be looked up and verified:
US spending on healthcare nearly double the average OECD rate.
Average doctor visitation rates one of the lowest in OECD's.
Infant mortality rate higher than well actually a lot of countries...
Mortality rates from avoidable and preventable causds are above the oecd average.
There are lots more if needed...
I really don't want to have to keep doing this but I'm sorry the American system is far from perfect just as all systems across the world are also not perfect
@Needless Contrarian, "therein lies the salve"? Shakespeare, in the play Hamlet, said therein lies the rub, which is often used since. Nobody says salve.
As to your comments, please explain how our Healthcare system is on tenure. Never heard that, never seen that.
@bonja, Why because it isnt state run its worse than other countries? Like you said we lead the world in medical innovation, we have some of best doctors and cutting edge technology available because we invented them. To say were underdeveloped I believe is innacurate.
@CocoasBro, "maybe the wording was a bit harsh" please read what I say, I do not think the American system is underdeveloped. If you are really wanting my own personal opinion, I think it has some deep flaws... which again its frustrating that I have to keep repeating this I think there are deep flaws in the other systems too... its about finding the middle ground imo.
Also I didnt say it leads the world I said it was one of the leaders... elborating: for sure its the biggest overall but medical innovation is a world wide thing... for example countries like switzerland come out with more per capita in medical innovation (which is hard metric to measure to be fair so this is going off factors such as medical papers) but is obviouslly smaller but shouldnt be discounted.
Look the whole thing I was trying to point out is there are big problems in the American system which can be proven with stats to comparable countries. This isn't saying its the worst or its terrible however...
@bonja, i think most of us understand and actually agree. A lot of us are not happy with how our government responded to covid but we are getting better in that aspect at least. As for healthcare i agree with you there. I believe there are some benefits to paying for it but only necause i dont have any trouble paying for it. There are a lot of ppl in aerica whi would benefit from free health care. Unfortunatley we have politicians who seem like they want free healthcare but america is a business and free is making money..america is run by spoiled petty insecure rich children
@Child Slapper, we have the highest infant mortality rate of any nation, the highest amount paid per capita for health care of any nation, and this is largely thanks to rural Midwest states where people are unemployed or do seasonal work and have no health insurance or access to Healthcare.
@bonja, Your absolutely right. Our system has flaws. And other health care systems are better than ours. Because they can afford it, because if what america does on the world stage.
@Guy Fawkes, it actually isn't. Statistically it's average at best
@CocoasBro, we don't. Idk where this comes from. Germany leads the world in medical innovation. And anything we invent is done in universities. Pharma has crap to do with it.
@hollow1104, i dont know how this applies to what i said or how to respond to it?
@hollow1104, when did I mention Big Pharma? I guess i shouldve also said one of the leaders of the world in medical Innovation. We invest heavily into medical research.
@CocoasBro, “because of what Americans does on the world stage”. Why don’t we focus on ourselves for a bit?
@CocoasBro, the implication, I believed, is the usual conservative talking point that our innovation is capitalism at work. When it's government research 90% of the time.
@Guy Fawkes, you said America has the best health system if you can afford it. That's incorrect.
@spongeblade, Ok I see where we got off on the wrong foot. I think I mentioned that the left are the only ones offering solutions.
(I have no clue about the Trump thing).
But regardless, I’m asking now. As stated before, other countries think we’re ‘underdeveloped’. Specifically in the healthcare area. How would you fix it?
@hollow1104, Capitalism and government are not mutually exclusive. It is because of Capitalism that we can invest into a powerful government. The private markets do tons of research on their own to. So im pretty sure you made up that 90% figure.
@MrTuxPenguin, Because we got a bunch of warmongers in power that we cant seem to get rid of?
@bonja, first time interacting with us Americans?
@masonharte, Tbh I find the majority of americans are pretty chill and willing to talk even if we disagree...
There is sadly a minority which takes any criticsm as an attack and go into full blow defence mode of try to attack the critic and deny any merits of the opposing view.
@Needless Contrarian, so like Ronald Reagan opened his mouth and you haven't heard anything since then huh?
@CocoasBro, oh I mean yeah I did. But I work in Healthcare and have friends in Pfizer and GSK, and I can tell you funding for research hasn't really changed at all over time. The money is in the crap you see advertised on TV.
@hollow1104, well I dont care if funding hasnt changed. Aslong as there is money going towards research. Hopefully alot.
@jouze, the reason America has the highest infant mortality rate is because of the culture in the Midwest that loves to have home births, which greatly increases chance of death.
And everyone has access to healthcare. It’s a complete lie that people don’t have access. If you make under a certain amount, it’s free as well.
@CocoasBro, your definition of capitalism makes no sense. Capitalists want to privatize everything and remove government power as much as possible. All the government ever does is try to control everything, which turns socialist, then communist eventually in current society.
@Child Slapper, who told you that was what capitalism means? Youre talking about ancaps and libertarians. Anarcho capitalists want no government, and libertarians ( of which I am) want limited government. Capitalism just means the ability to own buy and sell your own privately owned property.
I find it interesting that no one has mentioned WHO in Norway can get this supposedly ‘free’ and advanced healthcare. And the answer to that is Norwegians and ONLY Norwegians. Besides being small it has a minuscule amount of immigration meaning the population is very stable (and shrinking) and all resides in geographically small area and is overwhelming a single culture.
This means that Norway can fairly accurately predict the amount of healthcare they will need 20 years from now and can adjust its tax base accordingly. This is hardly a good solution in a country that isn’t allowed to maintain its own borders and doesn’t even currently know how many noncitizens it has. All of whom must be provided healthcare with no penalty.
@pleroma77, yeah, and its much the same for most of Europe
@pleroma77, they also dont have to pay for a military to protect them because they know if anyone actually attacked them america would swoop in and save them.
@pleroma77, made all that up, did ya?
How about we stop selling drugs to Norway and stop researching and developing new drugs and treatments altogether. See how long they stay "developed".
@Captain Swordsman, yes, because threatening to withhold life saving medicine is a valid response to someone criticizing your country. You petulant child
@Captain Swordsman, also that would never happen because 1. We don't have nearly the monopoly on biomedical research you seem to think America does and 2. Only 9% of scientists identify as conservative and the rest thankfully have enough sense to handle criticism like adults
@jouze, yes, because biting the hand that feeds you is so adult like
@Captain Swordsman, since when is being able to criticize your own country "biting the hand that feeds you"? What I should be thankful I live somewhere where an ambulance ride could set me back months in my finances? Loving your country and being willing to point out its flaws in hopes of fixing them aren't mutually exclusive, in fact I think they should go hand in hand to a healthy attitude of being willing to improve your country
@jouze, I never said anything about criticizing one's own country. I'm taking about Norway throwing shade at our healthcare system that enables their precious socialized system to run in the first place
Norway SMALL; US BIG:::: 😒😒. it’s like how every city BIG OR SMALL has the money to pay the police/ fire fighters. They tax tax-payers a certain percentage & everyone who needs it, gets the police/fire fighters. That’s why it would be stupid if someone said, “wow Manteca Ca has great police. But it’s impossible to figure out how to have police in New York citty. They just have wayyyy more people. & I hear Tokyo has even more people. Those poor fools don’t even have police...😒
@Monter408, that argument holds true only if every person is the same and all pays taxes equally. It also depends on the government using the money on only its own country. The US pays out hundreds of billions a year to other countries, including money for Pakistan to have gender studies programs (sadly a real thing)! One big reason I'm firmly against universal health care in the US isn't just finances, its because congress wouldn't actually spend the money on health care, they'd just inflate the budgets for their personal (corrupt) pork bills. If we cut out the nonsense spending we could probably pay for universal health care and then some with current tax rates.
Norway has a population of 5million total people as of 2019 we have 328 million and rising. If they want to show off their superior health care services maybe they should start by footing the bill for our citizens here. Or better yet, take their policies and implement them in shjthole countries like Mexico, where everyone has healthcare, but they all go to hospitals to die. If they can do either l will gladly endorse and sponser whatever dumbass system their miniscule country has.
@Hatori, Bro not sure why you got any downvotes. This is a valid argument against "socialized" medicine. I admit, it would be nice to get free healthcare, but it's really not feasible for a country our size.
@cardmosquito, also not actually free, the United States already has socialized healthcare to an extent with Medicare and Medicaid and they are one of the biggest expenditures of the United States totaling together alongside SS at round about 60% of the non-discretionary spending budget, and we are currently in a deficit, adding on further expenditures would need tax increases that would kill motivation for success or the arrestment of spending elsewhere.
@Hatori, Based on the upvote/downvote ratio, if I could read this I bet I'd be pretty upset
@Hatori, ok, you think the US has superior healthcare? At least enough to call a sh!-hole country, but the US mortality rates from malpractice are at 33% while Mexico's are at 36%.
WOW. The almighty US healthcare private sector has a superior improvement of 3% to Mexico's public healthcare that costs around 5% of it. We dont have the need to have to go into crippling life-long debt to save our lives with the same chances as yours.
Theres a good reason why people come here to buy insulin and antibiotics. You cant even provide them with basic affordable and preventative care. It sure is an annoyance to see such blatant misinformation being believed in.
@Grandpa Nope, It’s like you didn’t even read what he said. Nor did you catch the heavy sarcasm implied. All he said was that Norway is taking the “moral high ground” with leas than 2% of the population (and therefore the cost) of what the US has.
Edit: After re reading, it appears you are defending Mexican healthcare. Disregard and don’t pay attention to my laughter.
@Grandpa Nope, both of those numbers are based on numbers of filed medical complaints by patients, which is an absolute minefield of hidden variables.
@Andred, It would actually cost less for the US to have socialized health care than it does the way it is. I believe the US currently leads the world in health care spending, and this is so because of the outrageous cost of healthcare in the US and the fact that it is privatized, meaning between individuals and health insurance companies, more is spent than would otherwise be. The argument against socialized health care is deeply flawed and springs from a very strategically planned movement set in motion in the US in the earlier part of the twentieth century to keep health care privatized at all costs, and it has been the American people that have suffered the most from it. Don’t buy into the lie that socialized health care is too expensive in the US to be practical, because we are seeing precisely how expensive the alternative is right now.
@Grandpa Nope, maybe they should start running US statistics without California and other poverty-stricken locations.
@Grandpa Nope, smells like bullsh!t. Like the infant mortality statistic. Thats probably due more the doctors in mexico being un able to treat patients and just not treating them, or people just not keeping track as closely.
@CocoasBro, the US has the highest infant mortality rate of any developed nation because poor rural and urban communities can not access our inflated Healthcare due to prices or not having insurance tied to doing gig work. You call bs but don't even take a second to look it up to see you're just wrong. We're underdeveloped because we have the highest healthcare inequality of any nation. We have advanced forms of care but only the well off can afford to utilize it meaning a large portion of our populace skips it
@jouze, Thats a manipulated statistic and you quoted it wrong. It compares us who actrually keep track of our infant mortality with countries that dont. A hospital cannot turn away a patient. We have some of the most cutting edge medical technology readily available on the planet.
@CocoasBro, no its not. Literally any developed nation keeps track of all infant mortalities like Finland and Isreal and we are way higher than them. And having cutting edge tech 1 isn't actually all that different from tech in other nations because scientific discoveries are shared and 2. Doesn't matter when we have such healthcare inequality because many people especially in rural southern areas don't have access to Healthcare due to costs
@CocoasBro, other nations don't count stillbirths as births like we do so that contributed some to our higher statistics but even when you account for that were way higher than other nations and have more stillbirths per capita than any developed nation. Hospitals in other developed nations can't turn away a patient in need either
@jouze, 1. Its been debunked for years because that data set has us above Zimbabwe on infant mortality rate. News flash some countries dont keep perfect track of their mortality rates.
2. Practically every job offers health insurance, and hospitals cannot turn you away. This isnt saying that our system doesnt need adjustments but to say people dont have access is hyperbolic.
@CocoasBro, people don't have access because they don't seek it because they're afraid of being put under due to exorbitant medical debt. Many people in rural southern states never see family planning doctors because its too costly resulting in high rates of stillbirth and infant mortality
@CocoasBro, "it's been debunked for years" mate it's something that's tracked every year for the past 3 decades and is updated regularly. And while some nations might not be perfect on that list were still doing much worse than many who do have good tracking like for example; Germany, Italy, Estonia, Israel, Belgium, latvia...
@CocoasBro, the UAE, Hungary, croatia, the Barbados, Poland, australia...
@CocoasBro, I've had about 10 different jobs and only my current job offered health insurance and that's because it's a higher paying job that requires a degree (which is fvcked up, but not what this is about). Before I graduated, I worked retail, fast food, and warehouse jobs and all of them told me to go to healthcare.gov when I asked about insurance. So no, most jobs do not offer insurance, especially the lower paying jobs where it's needed more because the people working those jobs can't afford the outrageous expenses. I've worked with people who had to work with broken limbs without treatment because they chose to buy food or pay rent over fixing their broken arm.
@CocoasBro, you don't seem to understand but healthcare isn't just going to the hospital any time something is wrong. Modern Healthcare is also proper planning and preventative measures, its regular check ins and scans to catch things early. All of which a privatized heslthcare system lacks in because it prioritizes immediate profits over long term solutions to problems
@jouze, 1. Yes you are taking data out of context from different countries with different metrics and standards for infant mortality and coming to a conclusion to suit a narrative. Debunked that data set doesnt mean what you think it means.
2. By your definition of healthcare I dont even have healthcare. And I'm fully insured.
I guess you are labeled a “socialist” in this country for believing that health care has become so outlandishly expensive that it defies all logic to keep it privatized considering how any injury/illness has the potential to bankrupt the majority of Americans because of the costs and lack of coverage. Call me a socialist, our healthcare system is downright evil in how oriented toward profit it is at the expense of patients, and private health insurance companies have done nothing but manipulate the hell out of it the extract the most amount of profit possible.
I feel like it should be mentioned that this isnt a statement from norway the country but a university in norway.
What does this say? I can't read it
Is Hank Hill wearing Patrick Star’s shorts?
Well, they're not wrong.