This always bothered me. There's no logic to linking the first statement to the second statement.
@TomPholio, I was about to say how does God knowing the future correlate with there being no sin?
@Duncan5769, I think the idea is, if the future is predetermined, then that means the choices we make really aren't our own, thus we are not committing sins because we have no actual choice in our decisions
@Duncan5769, If God knows the future then there is no free will. It’s a simple fact of if the future is known then there is no possible variation and we all are predestined to make the decisions that we do. If we are predestined to make the decisions that we do then there is no free will. If there is no free will then Eve can’t be blamed for eating the apple so she can’t be sinning. I suppose you could argue it’s still a sin but you would only be arguing that God created Eve to sin and there was absolutely nothing she could do about it. It’d be like creating a drawing of a stickman killing another stickman and then blaming the first stickman for murder.
@Dubzebub, well your pretermined action would still be a sin. That's like saying "May as well do these drugs, because your fate is pretermined, so I can't blame myself."
@Duncan5769, but if the future is truly predetermined it doesn’t matter if you believe you had an option, you truly were always going to do the drugs. I’m honestly asking and not trying to be rude but do you understand how the concept of free will works?
@Dubzebub, whats always got me is (correct me if im wrong) the apple has always represented free will and sin. But if it was eves choice to take the apple that means free will pre existed unless it was predetermined by god for eve to take the apple. Am i the only one who sees this as a paradox?
@Ghoaxst, well technically since the Bible says God knows the future (I believe that’s correct but feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) free will never existed at all and continues to be an illusion.
@Trance Gemini, and another confusing spot for me is satan was created/birthed? by God but due to his own free will which had to have been given to him by his creator was shunned and cast out of heaven who unleashed Gods wrath on the world thanks to "sin"
@Blasphemy is Fun, thats not true, just because you know what is going to happen doesn’t mean you are depriving someone of the choice. For instance, take back to the future for a crude example, with the sports almanac from the future, Biff knows the outcome of a great many sporting events, does that mean the losing sides were not competing for the win just because the outcome was known? The stronger argument is if God is all powerful, meaning he could stop all sin without effort, by allowing sin doesn’t that mean he is indirectly causing sin? Ultimately its extremely hard to philosophically reason how someone who is omniscient and omnipotent could be all good, which is why these debates exist.
@The nOly One, it is true. If an outcome is already known then you have no say in the matter, you personally not knowing is what gives the illusion of free will. It’s a well known fact, the only reason we don’t know if we have free will or not is because God is not a proven factor.
@The nOly One, I’m afraid that you’re the one that’s mistaken friend. You would be correct if God saw a plethora of potential futures but if he knows for sure what is going to happen then that means there is only one way for your life to go and that in turn means that you do not have free will.
@Blasphemy is Fun, see thats not entirely correct. Just because an outcome is known, does not mean choices do not exist to lead to that outcome. Its basically like always having hindsight.
@Earth Chan, how does knowing the future mean you don’t have choice? If I know that you get in a car accident tomorrow, does that mean you didnt choose to get in you car and drive at the exact time you needed to to get in that car accident?
@The nOly One, You don’t seem to understand the difference between free will and the illusion of free will. It’s too hard to explain over this platform since you’re not immediately understanding it but it’s an interesting subject, if you’re interested I’d suggest you look into it, I’m sure there are a lot of places online that explain it or maybe take a philosophy class.
@Blasphemy is Fun, I know the difference between an illusion and an actuality. We as humans always are under the illusion we have free will, no matter whether you believe in a God or not. The debate I am having is whether actual free will can exist with the existence of god. You could also make an argument that even without God free will doesn’t exist either, since we still have very little concept on how time works and whether it is set or not.
@The nOly One, That’s exactly what that means... if you are certain of the future and there are no other possible futures then there is no free will... if you tell me that I’m going to get into a car crash tomorrow and that’s the only future then I’m not able to choose not to get into my car because it’s predetermined, the choice is out of my hands. This situation just never comes about because we don’t know the future.
@Earth Chan, but the problem with your statement is then you must believe that there is never free will, because regardless of whether we know the future or not, the future exists, and thus, everything is predetermined according to you for the future to be the way that it is. I’m arguing free will exists regardless, whether someone knows the future or not, choices are still made each and every day to get to that future. Thats why I likened it to hindsight, because we can always look back and see if we chose something different, any given situation could have worked out more or less beneficial to us. Obviously we will never know whether we truly have free will or not as we as humans are not omniscient, so who knows
@The nOly One, man you’re really struggling to understand this.....
@Pseudonymble , please enlighten me
@Earth Chan, oh I don't believe in free will, I just don't think a lack of free will excuses your actions. You are still responsible for what you do, even if it's pretermined, or what you're wired to do.
@The nOly One, The others have basically gone over everything, you just don’t seem to be getting it. Which is fine I guess but a little weird. Maybe try to reread the thread?
@Blasphemy is Fun, what if you know how the companions quest ends in skyrim, but still decide to go through with it? Is that not your free will that you went through the quest?
@StiffWood, It’s more that you can’t not complete it. If the future you see is you completing the quest, then you choose not to complete it, then the future you saw was wrong and that’s not the same scenario as God knowing the future. In the scenario that God knows the future, the only reason that we think we have free will is because we don’t know the future so our decisions seem like our own as they play out. If we were informed of the future then we might try to change it but since the future is set in stone we would be unable to change it and would then be following a path that we didn’t choose. This never has come about because nobody has ever been able to know the future.
@StiffWood, it’s a little hard (for me) to explain over text but I assure you the concept is sound. Feel free to look it up and read it from a better source.
@Blasphemy is Fun, so here’s the part that’s confusing. There’s a difference between our future being predetermined and it being foreknown. God gave us free will, but He does know what choices we will make and each outcome to follow. Just cause you know something will happen does not make you the cause of said thing. In this case, God knowingly made us knowing we’d sin and be a mess of people, but He loved us anyway and created us despite this all. That’s true love and I think that’s beautiful.
@Exotic Chaos, read the whole chain.
@Blasphemy is Fun, sounds like a LOT of work...
@Exotic Chaos, I mean don’t join in if you don’t know what you’re talking about...
@Blasphemy is Fun, oof aggression AND a bold accusation
@Exotic Chaos, Well when you spend like an hour and a half discussing something and then somebody walks in and tells you you’re wrong and is unwilling to catch themselves up... it seems rude.
@Exotic Chaos, also it’s a fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about because I’ve already gone over what you brought up.
@Dubzebub, the problem is that a preknown future doesn’t necessarily imply a predestined future. It could be that God knows every iteration of a possible future (Dr. Strange style) or that he knows which iteration will prevail as a result of all choices. But neither of those necessarily eliminate choice. They both just account for choice
@Blasphemy is Fun, please don’t immediately assume someone doesn’t understand what you are talking about when they disagree with you or question a point of your argument
@FPVeteranWolf, knowing every possible future is different and would not mean free will doesn’t exist. However it is believed that God knows the future not possible outcomes and that would mean free will doesn’t exist. I didn’t assume you didn’t understand because you disagreed, I simply assumed you didn’t understand because it seemed like you weren’t understanding...
@Earth Chan, I think it boils down to what you consider a free will choice. In the car example, you would say there is no free will because there is no choice to avoid the crash. I would disagree and say that free will isn’t necessarily all inclusive, and that having once choice still constitutes free will. But personally I think that of God’s omniscience in terms of seeing unlimitedly possible futures. Of course certain things, prophecies, end times business, etc. Must happen in all possible futures to be valid. Of course this may be because I don’t view time as a straight line when I think of a diety and possible outcomes
@Blasphemy is Fun, im not the person you addressed that to, to begin with. So don’t say I wasn’t understanding when I just got here. The points you’ve made have been easy to understand, but also easy to disagree with. You view choice and illusion of choice as two different things, one associated with no foreknowledge and one associated with foreknowledge. You claim if there is foreknowledge then choice is but an illusion. If time is a straight line, then I agree with you. I however believe time is a sphere, ever radiating from the center, much like the universe, with the expansion representing the increasing number of iterations. If a deity exists, especially one capable of foreknowledge, then this being mist either exist within time and be able to look across it, or exists outside of time and be able to look into it from the outside. I believe the latter. But I don’t believe that if God sees the exteriormost parts of the sphere, it railroads the sphere into a line
@FPVeteranWolf, my bad for assuming it was you, I think I ever so slightly misread your comment but I’m at fault all the same. My statement however stands in that I was not assuming ignorance because of disagreement but because of evidence.
@Blasphemy is Fun, in short, other than my critique of your argument style, I can understand your view and why you would believe it, but simply have a different one myself. There are lots of neat theories about possibilities and convergences when talking about predestination or free will. My favorite line of thinking has to do with multiple presents leading to the same future
@Blasphemy is Fun, fair enough. And I don’t blame you for misreading. It is late. I disagreed because I didn’t see the evidence in the other person’s comment, but I may just be reading it wrong because I do understand what you meant.
@FPVeteranWolf, indeed we can all have our own opinions. That being said free will is technically defined by acting without being bound by fate or necessity. If God knows that there is one single possible future and can view it then you are bound by fate to act out that one future and thus by definition do not have free will. If you disagree that’s fine though, I personally consider it wrong but you’re free to disagree with that too lol that’s the fun part about free will (or the illusion of it) ;)
@Blasphemy is Fun, that’s why I subscribe to the infinite known possibilities side of things, which agrees with my sphere. Plus it’s a lot less scary than a single predetermined fate. Though practically there would be no way to know
@FPVeteranWolf, yeah I mean with infinite possibilities free will is a given. I’d love to subscribe to that theory as well however I am unfortunately agnostic about the subject since there seems to be no prevailing evidence yet towards any one theory.
@Blasphemy is Fun, an understanding of higher dimensions may help. For instance, we live in the 4th dimension, where time is linear. But a 5th dimensional being would be able to see all of our timeline at once. Now here you might say that since the 5th dimensional being can see the end of the timeline, that our choices in the 4th dimension arent choices at all. However, the ability of the 5th being to view our timeline is dependent on the completion of our timeline, in the same way that we cannot read a book until the words are written down, or view a picture until it is drawn. Actions in higher dimensions are dependent on the completion of actions in lower dimensions, the changes themselves often being imperceptible.
In summary, we are able to conclude that free will exists despite the future being known, with the caveat being that the actions being taken and the knowledge of those actions take place in different dimensions.
@Lysander99, nailed it.
It’s a lot of fun to also consider where a soul would go if it existed. Thinking of Heaven and Hell as different planes of existence, and time being “Infinite” in those planes could just be like 2 seconds in our plane of existence lol. Philosophers and theologists pursue a career field that is impossible to understand. We make things up and “Believe” it to be true without much solid evidence to back it. Maddening career fields.
Life is too short to waste it trying to appeal to a higher power that we have no evidence to justify worshiping it aside from books written by men and people that can hear voices. My theory is that the bible was written by some people with mental disorders such as schizophrenia (In times of no medicine) or were on really good drugs. I think people want to believe there’s something better than this. People are waiting for what’s next and totally ignoring what we already have
@The nOly One, I think the only part they are trying to get across that you may have overlooked is this: if person A is creating person B and in their creation, person A can predetermine every decision person B makes throughout their existance, they do not have free will.
Replace god for A and eve for B and decide if god essentially forced her hand, by knowingly creating her in a way that she was guaranteed to make that decision.
and the reason freewill can exist without a god is the fact that there is no one designing your existance. any decisions made, even if there is a destiny, are yours alone.
@Blasphemy is Fun, i get the concept. But look at it like this. Think of like all 11 dimensions of reality i believe it is. No matter what, we can do what we want in any of these points. All of these dimensions make up the fabric of every single conceivable outcome of how things came to be. Each one of us, as humans. Have free will to do whatever we want. I am not compelled to do what my future self has already done. My own actions that i chose to do led me there. If I was to see what i was able to do in th future, I'd be looking at one possibility of infinite. I'm never going to know for sure. God as an omnicient being, knows all the possibilities, allows me to follow through any of them. He just also is able to see which one i will end up choosing. Kind of like my soul being the highlight traveling along a path in the 4th dimension. He is a being outside of it all, sort of like a DM that knows what ur gonna do. He just made the rules and the world, you choose your own adventure.
@ThePandaPool , but see, I’m challenging the difference between predetermined and knowledge. I will liken it to a teacher, say a teacher gives a class of 30 students a true/false exam. The teacher knows exactly what each student will choose, does that mean each student doesn’t actually have a choice? The arguments above would say no, they didn’t because it was know, my argument is that unless something forces each student into choosing the answer, then they still had a choice, regardless of whether it was known or not, catch my drift?
@Pseudonymble , but see, I’m challenging the difference between predetermined and knowledge. I will liken it to a teacher, say a teacher gives a class of 30 students a true/false exam. The teacher knows exactly what each student will choose, does that mean each student doesn’t actually have a choice? The arguments above would say no, they didn’t because it was known, my argument is that unless something forces each student into choosing the answer, then they still had a choice, regardless of whether it was known or not, catch my drift?
@The nOly One, I get what you're saying, but what I think you're missing is that for your situation to be relevant, the teacher would have needed to have made the students completely, in a way that their decision was one of the teachers will.
@ThePandaPool , well that was my argument farther up, that an omnipotent argument is stronger for a lack of free will rather than an omniscient one, because just since a choice is known, doesnt mean the choice is forced, but if a choice can be forced, and is not, then by not forcing that choice you are essentially making that choice, do you understand?
@The nOly One, I get what you're saying better now. Guidance for a likely outcome still has freewill, but creation with certainty of the outcome does not.
@The nOly One, I am gonna jump in here and hopefully not screw this up. From what I understand if you know (100%) what choice will be made then that choice doesn't exist. If someone has the free will to make a choice no one else can know what their decision will be. You can guess what a person will do and be right but that's different from knowing what a person will do. A teacher could never know what each student would pick on a test without knowing the future. A teacher could take an guess at what a student would pick but the student might still suprise the teacher.
@random09, i used that analogy as a hypothetical, and my entire argument is that the choice still exists even if someone knows what you will choose. My argument is that in order for free will to not exist, something must be forcing each decision, and knowledge of a choice is not forcing a choice.
It's chaos theory time! The sensitivity to a system is what determines the future. This is also known as a form of the butterfly effect. In this case, there are completely uncontrollable random effects on the quantum level that cannot be predicted until observed. In such sense it is impossible to predict the future even if you did know every single particle position. Because just knowing a position is impossible as that information would change because it's observed. This is a common misconception to an older philosophical theory that was debunked due to increased understanding in quantum physics.
ALSO! the amount of information required to be aware of every single possibility is impossible as there are infinite possibilities of particle positions!
@OfficialNyarlathotep, unless it can be simulated*
@Ghoaxst, this is a topic I'm saving for later!
@OfficialNyarlathotep, what if you had the knowledge of the exact moment, energy content, and concentration of the moment of universal creation? You could (theoretically) predict the exact location, state and all other quanta of all particles that came out of that hot mess, and predict the future! Also since the “universe” is supposed to be a closed system, there’s no outside contamination
@Prince super Vegeta , we have no way to determine is it's a closed system or not, thus, particles past the observable universe cannot be accounted for.
Can everyone ignore the religious debates for a minute and recognize that I Satan was the first pet snake owner who tried to encourage people to eat more healthy foods?
Also Mr. Snake, what is it for you to determine what the scope of omniscience is? If it's all that is within understanding, what is to say that all that we can conceive from our perspective is the limit of what can be conceptualized! Anything past this would be pretty presumptuous, and impossible to interpret! This means everything said is potentially wrong or falsely observed!
So is the devil just an uppity philosopher that pissed God off?
@The Flame War, that really does make sense, tho
I don’t see how a predetermined future means we have no choice. A future choice was made because you chose it, not because god knew you would.
This is why God as a grand mathematician who sees an infinite number of possible futures works better than the Calvinist predestination view. If things are predestined, there’s no point. But if we still have freewill and there is simply foreknowledge, then the ball’s back in our court
I have to side more with Boethius’ take on free will in that god has the ability to see time all at once and is all omniscient... but, this doesn’t mean we don’t have free will, we are just incapable of understanding time the way god does. Without free will there would be no greater good to achieve if the default was just everyone being good regardless. Being good would just be, “being” since there would be no choice to be had. If god determined us to sin that would mean god would be capable of evil which is impossible since he is supremely good and nothing but good can come from him. Because of this, god did not create evil; man did.
Didn't know Danny Sexbang was Eve.
That Snake was a master debater.
Im not the best source of information but i have read the bible from start to finish and i can only tell you what my understanding of all this means..
Its like when you buy someone a gift that you know they are really going to like but they dont know anything about it. What they do before you give them that gift is all free will but you have watched them all their life and have a pretty good understand of what they are going to do.. god has a plan for you but he can change it.and has changed passed plans about 3 or 4 times in the bible already.