In case people aren't aware, and what this post is stating, is that masks don't stop you from getting covid, it's to stop someone with covid giving it to someone else. Is it 100% effective? Absolutely not. But condoms aren't 100% effective either.
@FullMetalAlcoholist, That explains why I have 5 kids
@FullMetalAlcoholist, yeah sadly a guy from another pic doesn’t seem to get this...
@The Pun Shielder, i never made that arguement, to clarify, since you sadly got me wrong repeatedly in the last pic, i said they were useless to stop the spread in this country anymore with its rate of transmission making the masks help too marginal to matter. Useless basically in stopping you from spreading it to others. You claimed disney land is the fault of the second wave, then i retorted it was the riots and protests. That's a slightly different story. Also for new readers, i live in Washington state so here we can be jailed for not wearing a mask even on an empty sidewalk. That's the kind of crap that needs to stop.
@Dephenistrator, okay first off holy sh!t this was all pointless, because I agree. We really screwed that argument up.
But I just want to point out I didn’t label just Disney Land, I was talking about people still going out in general. Like the beach and what have you, I was giving examples. And yeah I realize the protests are also a huge sum of the infection rates. I just don’t label the second wave to just that.
I guess where I still stand is that every little bit helps, so I’m still wearing mine when I go out.
But that requirement needs to stop. I definitely don’t agree with that.
So I hope we can get past this debate of ours, I apologize for coming off as an @sshole if I did.
@The Pun Shielder, yes, we can put this behind us. I don't hate anyone i debate for their rebuttals unless they spewing some pretty serious hate and insults like liberachi. Even then I'd rather things get better. How about we agree to disagree here?
@Dephenistrator, sure thing!
@FullMetalAlcoholist, no one said so ill say it. My d*ck cant breath!!
@Dephenistrator, Wait. Is lib-tard still around? I haven't seen him spew his vile rhetoric in quite a while.
@Ze Grammar Nazi, i honestly don't known if he's still around since i had issues with my phone and new hours for a few months i kinda had a spotty hiatus
@Ze Grammar Nazi, I think he might’ve been banned maybe? I dunno 🤷♂️
@FullMetalAlcoholist, so what you’re saying is don’t use condoms gotcha
@Dephenistrator, if it has an impact on transmission rates, than it makes sense that you could be arrested for it. You are endangering people's lives. It's the same reason that people can get arrested for drunk driving.
If not, it doesn't make sense to not wear it anyway. The consequences of being wrong about it helping prevent the spread is mild discomfort, the consequences of being right involve people getting sick and receiving permanent injuries and death.
@Darth Panserbjorne, and since it actually does not have an impact on transmission rates, such as is proven by European countries having different mask wearing habits not effect their rates then saying i am murdering people this way is garbage.
Are you familiar with the growing push by doctors and scientists to classify transmission through aerosol sized particles labeling it airborne? That would explain the transmission rates we have seen since the virus is spreading no matter what we do. If it's airborne then earloop mask are pointless as well as 6 feet apart.
If they want to give consequences for spreading it then go after the people who mash pit themselves in these protests and riots. They eclipse all other transmission since the lockdown and got a free pass by our shít governor while he chases people not wearing his fashion mandates
@Darth Panserbjorne, earloop masks in everyday life does not save lives, that is anti science political rhetoric to say otherwise
@Dephenistrator, i never said you were murdering people. That is a terrible thing to accuse people of. i would never say that if not justified.
The main question is whether or not it requires a droplet vector. If not, you're right that a mask wont help. I dont believe there is a consensus on this yet, but i dont stay up to date.
I agree. There should be consequences to large gatherings. That's not an easy task though, both politically and physically.
@FullMetalAlcoholist, it's an interesting point. If the mask doesn't stop you getting covid, but it's effective against the spread of covid, how did the mask wearing guy with covid get the covid? Maybe hand to mouth? Genuinely intrigued..
@Darth Panserbjorne, endangering peoples lives is basically saying killing them. I do not think going maskless in places other than say a surgery room or nursing home would matter, especially not the ones used by the public which fo not stop the spread of this infection. If it was a sensitive place like a nursing home, i should be tested before going in and have a something with a ventilator. Anything less is a joke for stopping this.
Despite the vast unscientific irrelevance of consensus as it is just popularity, (the earth is flat was once consensus) this virus has shown that nothing we do other than staying miles away from eachother stops it. The spread rate does not match the pattern of regular droplet isolation. I'm sure you've heard a hundred times by now how shocked people have been at it's rate of spread, even if it's not traveling on aerosols, it is bypassing everything we got. Especially useless earloop masks that still use and spew the air around you.
@Darth Panserbjorne, i would agree it's not easy but zero effort has been made. Even if you ignore the infection the destruction done alone has largely gone without basic enforcement. It's despicable. There should not be burned down stores for any reason. But that digresses, the point being is that the cat is already out of the bag. Harping on people for a mask after the protests shattered lockdown and open those floodgates is like trying to use a single rag to clean a flooded house. It's over, it's here immunity or bust at this point. The vaccine with moving deadlines that may or may not come is good but isn't a pillar we should shape our strategy around.
Hell, the lethality and permanent damage done by this virus is isolated to those with preexisting conditions or elderly. Kids are 8X more likely to get the flu from this. You kind of have to shive your head in the sand to think isolating the healthy has a point to it.
@FullMetalAlcoholist, Condoms are very close to 100%. The analogy doesn't really hold up imo
@Dephenistrator, hey, weren't you the state with a bunch of idiots who blocked off and took over like a few square blocks and pretty much destroyed it all? Get over yourself and wear a mask in public. Is it 100% going to make sure you don't get or spread the virus? No. Is it going to make you not look like a selfish asshole? Yes.
@Dephenistrator, there is a big difference between the terms "endangering people's lives" which indicates the potential for death, "killing" which indicates willful termination of of another's life, and "murder" which is explicitly the unlawful and typically unjustified killing of someone.
I believe you meant scientific irrelevance (rather than how relevant it is to non-science). If so, i would agree that it's imperfect, as all things are, and that it will fail us in plenty of cases, but consensus in most cases reflects humanity's best efforts at explaining something. I am personally more inclined to accept the opinions of a large number of experts over individuals with little training on the subject. It is an appeal to authority and appeal to majority fallacy, but you have to have some basis for making decisions when you dont have the information, resources, or expertise to study it yourself. As i have indicated though, i have not kept up to date on new developments.
@Not him again, yeah, we are the state that had the mentally damaged leaders that let the psychos of seattle do trash the city at their whim. It was despicable.
It's not shy of 100% effectiveness, it's shy of 0% effectiveness and you assholes want to send us to jail and not the fúcks from CHAZ? You call me selfish?! Lol, other way around crybaby. Earloop masks on the sidewalk is not going to deter Corona virus. Not by one life.
@Dephenistrator, you are right that there hasnt been a good (or really any) response to the bullshjt thats been happening. I have nothing to add to that. However on the topic of harping on people for not wearing a mask, have you considered the case (however unlikely) in which the information you have is incorrect? If you're right (which is honestly fairly certain) there's no problem of course. but if not, you, as expressed previously, face more dire consequences. If there's no significant harm in wearing them, why not just do it for that uncertainty.
It's not exclusively isolated to known preexisting conditions, etc. That is vast majority of cases. Im sure you are referring to flu like symptoms, because you cant get an unrelated virus just from having covid. On the contrary, the more healthy people that have the disease, the more likely it will be spread to the unhealthy. It's not just going to stop at the people that expose themselves
@Darth Panserbjorne, as i have indicated i have kept up with the science. I love how people think all scientists think one way just because the ones politically chosen for tv all have the same pre selected results. Consensus is not fact, one experiment can prove consensus wrong and that makes it's use a political cudgel not a scientific fact. The facts stand that masks are virtually useless. The facts stand that kids are 8x more likely to get the flu then corona and are virtually unaffected by it yet we are one of the last countries to open our schools. The US is drinking deep into political anti science over corona virus and that is the consensus i won't trust over the science.
Nice try playing definitions, no matter how you spin it your accusing me of ending lives when I'm not. That's just bad not matter which word you pick so go ahead and use whichever you like
@Darth Panserbjorne, of course it doesn't just stop at healthy people, but you isolate the unhealthy. The longer you go after the healthy the more you artificially build a second or third or whatever wave of the virus. Antibodies are going to do more work than a possible vaccine that could easily be never existant do to mutation.
I always consider information could be incorrect, it's why i have entire folders of shortcuts to different news sources of either party to cross reference. (Another folder for science as i love most all sciences especially astronomy)
The concern is two things, one: this lacks any science that it helps at all. People have been in lockdown and masked up pretty much all year and it spread everywhere. (Again, evidence it's in aerosols of water as all these measures should have had a serious effect) i don't see why i should burn up my face over something as useless as wearing a tin foil hat to stop the virus. (2 is coming)
@Darth Panserbjorne, 2: have you seen the other "emergency mandates" that came next? Govs attacking churches saying they cannot even sing or chant (always only churches to, never any other religions) there was a church that met outside in their cars, they never left their cars once and police shut it down and wrote a ticket for everyone.
They make laughable ones to like in some states you can jog on beaches but not sit, then in some you can sit but cannot jog or do any activity and BOTH versions say the science backs them up! Lovely! We have govenors picking and chooses what businesses to shut down arbitrarily. Each state has different stores shut down again claiming science, but there's an obvious glaring problem. If you let a business open with the same anount of people in there or the same amount of space as others you close, then what the heck are you doing? These businesses are being treated differently on political whimsy.
@Darth Panserbjorne, bonus 3rd: did you that many places have made it illegal for hospitals to list the source of a patient catching the virus as protesting? Now why would you do that without bad intentions?
@Darth Panserbjorne, I'm saying those dying or getting permanent lung damage have preexisting conditions or are at high risk, and the majority (as in at least 98% of people) are fine and largely never even know they had it.
@Dephenistrator, yeah, the government response to this resembles a circus. I have heard of the church in cars thing, and i was incredulous.
As for your 3rd point, i have not heard of this, i cant imagine an impartial reason this would happen
@Dephenistrator, i acknowledged that consensus is not infalliable. I never mentioned anything about tv or mainstream media. A single experiment can indeed prove consensus wrong, but i have yet to do so, and im not just going to trust that some random person on the internet with no clout has done so. Consensus is simply more likely to be correct. Which facts? Are these your findings, or have you found studies regarding it? I agree not to trust consensus over verifible experiments.
Im not playing anything. I mean exactly what i said and not a iota more. I'm sorry if you are sensitive to criticism, but that's not my problem, and im not going to feel bad because you took it wrong.
You make a fair counter on the artificial prolonging of the virus, and i am not informed enough to contest this further.
Good. skepticism, especially of one's self, is a wonderful practice.
How is your face burning up? Do you have an alergic reaction to the material or something?
@Darth Panserbjorne, Google "church goers in cars" there's alot of pages on it.
@Dephenistrator, sorry, i meamt that i was incredulous figuratively. I have no doubt that it happened.
@Darth Panserbjorne, i am a very warm person, even in 40 degrees i wear shorts. I have made people shivering cuss at me jokingly. I also got multiple serious heat issues visiting Florida some years ago. It was onlyess than 100 two days out of the two weeks we were there. Universal and nasa was cool though. All in all, the mask raises my heads temperature faster than i thought it would and can even make my face hot or eveb make me light headed as soon as i start doing any activity.
I don't care if you feel bad, or any more than i care if you think i am sensitive for being critical of your critical rebuttal.
@Darth Panserbjorne, you acknowledged it in a way that minimized the the risk of it being wrong compared to my perspective of science being in a state of ever changing flux. Especially since every source is cherry picking scientists funded by their political funds, i do not care what consensus says when direct contrary data conflicts with the consensus on most major issues of our time
@Darth Panserbjorne, then i will apologize as well for the unnecessary rebuttal over the church car thing
@Dephenistrator, if you have a legitimate meducal reason to not wear a mask, that makes sense. That would however make you the exception, most people wont actually have issues like lightheadedness and heatstroke from wearing them.
@Darth Panserbjorne, i know I'm an outlier, i wasn't really gonna bring this up until i was pressed about it.
My largest arguement is still the mask being a political gateway drug to do greater mandates. California gov recommend churches shut down and go to video permanently (sorry for all the church references, they stir up alot of resistance so they are dominate in debates the last two nights. I'm not a church goer btw)
@Dephenistrator, no criticism from me whether or not you go to church. I see where you're coming from though. I've personally been disturbed by the politics surrounding this pandemic.
Could you explain why doctors wear surgical masks? Do they need the “emotional support” in the face of their inevitable infection of themselves and their patients? No. It Is a preventative measure to reduce the chance of spreading infection. Plain and simple. Yes, people will still get infected, but at a much lower rate.
@DNAMaster, can you explain how a scarf on the sidewalk is saving lives? If it can transmit there than a pathetic earloop mask will not stave transmission
@DNAMaster, the point is the doctor is preventing the spread of bacteria to the patient lying on the table with a gaping wound. They don’t put a screen over the patient to keep them from catching any bacteria. Likewise, if you’re not sick, a mask will not prevent you from getting sick, and may actually increase your risk.
@Bobaganusche88, increase how?
@Darth Panserbjorne, some scientists argue that the droplets built up in the mask harbor more bacteria through the day and is making more people sick with other illness
@Dephenistrator, arent the masks designed to be used no more than couple hours at a time?
@Darth Panserbjorne, I'm not sure. Since doctors and nurses have worn these for decades i lean towards disbelieving this one as we should have heard if this a long time ago. Perhaps people wearing the same mask for 8 hour workdays produces different results
Yeah but if you take your draws off as you shart you might aswell not be wearing them. Same for masks if you wear them perfectly they help. If you dont well then they dont help as much.
Isn't this the guy with the neck tattoo on his neck? And went to India by accident instead of Indiana?
This guy is a legend!
I find this analogy kind of funny. Because either way you'll get pink eye.
Thinking about it as well. If you exhale infectious materials into a trap, that you then breath in, are you making the infection worse for yourself? Genuinely curious.
@That one lurker, cant say you're correct about the pink eye.
No it would not make it worse. If a couple germs go back into your lungs it's not going to effect you, while if a couple get into healthy lungs it's enough to start an infection.
@ThePandaPool , well isn't pink eye just the infection of finkel material in your eye?
I may not have ment a drastic change in health. But, I had the question. The intake of new oxygen through filter, taking in everything you breathed out. I'm glad to hear that not be the case.
@That one lurker, it pretty much is, but you would be 10000% more likely to get it with pants off over pants on.
I would prefer no ass ever
In China, as the pollution rises the mask wearing went up, and the free speach activists went down.
Not a valid argument. You know why farts stink? Cuz they full sh*t particles too small for the fabric to contain. Guess what same thing with virus spores. Cloth masks do not prevent. N95 help but not much and nobody is wearing an N95. The condom comment is also irrelevant, the only time a condom is ineffective is when improperly used.
@Billy the Squid, thank you! I don't know why this concept is beyond so many people's understanding
@Billy the Squid, a mask may not be 1000% effective but it does reduce transmission if worn properly. Also, moisture from exhaling also collects on the mask which helps to trap the virus as well.
@Dashkatae, anything other than an industrial n95 or better does not reduce anything. Doctors wear exam masks and toss the after each patient. Your argument actually states why they are ineffective. The packaging even says they don't prevent virus transmission. Once it is contaminated "breathed in" it must be discarded. You touch the the mask you touch your clothes, the hand rails the counters, the doorknobs, the push/pull doors, your phone, the computer, paperwork, pens pencils, the desk, your kids literally everything after adjusting the mask, by which you have contaminated by touching because of all the stuff you touched prior. No masks do not prevent virus transmission.
2A is more effective against that kind of behavior. Anyone who was not worried about people coughing or sneezing before should not hope a mask will keep them safe now.
A mask in a pandemic is about as effective as hiding beneath a desk in a nuclear fallout.
No policy proposed to date would stop, or even slow, the spread of an infectious disease. None yet are meant to.
@Cave Dweller, trying to stop a natural occurrence is like trying to get out of a clown suit by dancing: it won't work and you'll look stupid trying.
@Cave Dweller, it’s basic sociology. If you tell people there is nothing to do as a common person, you’d have rioting in the streets (well more of it at least) saying the government wasn’t protecting the people. But tell them a little square of fabric or paper will protect them and they MUST wear it and people feel things are being accomplished.
@pleroma77, absolutely ((AND)) there’s more to it. There is a goal. They* need to get the people accustomed to certain ideas first.
@ Emco567, or using an umbrella (à la Wile E. Coyote) under a tsunami.
@Cave Dweller, exactly, with many researchers pushing to get covid classified as airborne you really can't justify earloop masks anymore. It makes no sense. Especially since we aren't trying to stop it's spread across the country or anything, it's everywhere now, herd immunity is a matter of course at this stage
@Dephenistrator, indeed. An airborne pathogen will not be slowed by a face cover that barely qualifies as a veil— as protection from infection OR contagion. Furthermore, “herd immunity” ONLY applies to the un-vaccinated/un-inoculated portion of a population. The ONLY individuals vulnerable, or “at risk” are the individuals who choose NOT to vaccinate. As the infected/recovered population grows, the need/utility of a vaccine quickly approaches zero and claims of mutation render vaccines ineffective. Therefore, there is no need or justification to force vaccinations onto anyone— ever.
Those concerned of infection, should feel free to accept whatever it is “authorities” are calling a “vaccine,” but will gain no ground in pushing it onto anyone else.
“Vaccines should be available, but not mandatory.”-PDJT
If I was worried about getting sh!t on...I would stay home.
"He's trying to communicate with us, I just know it!"
What language is this?
Face mask and a grammar book would be fine.
That writing gave me cancer...
I'm not sure. I think he has the right idea, but I'm not sure I translated correctly.
I love this guy!