I’m a stock trader in NYC, I’m an avid capitalist. But Venezuela is not an example of why “socialism doesn’t work”. Venezuela is an example of why authoritarian dictatorships don’t work and why dependency on a single export (roughly 95% of their total exports), especially that export being oil, leads to economic chaos.
@YoYoMango, especially if the one export is a finite resource
@SqurtieMan, and especially when the global economy is trying to reduce oil imports and seek alternatives
@YoYoMango, fvcking thank you. Dictatorships get equated with socialism when it’s not. Plus ya know resource mismanagement really kicks you in the dick if you mess up
@nepheal, I agree. However, the majority of dictatorships do typically declare a socialist state in order to seize control of the economy. But that gets more into Marxist socialism, which is of course drastically different than the democratic forms of socialism that we see in Europe, as well as in the United States
@YoYoMango, care to name those so called examples of socialism in the US and Europe?
@nepheal, it’s kinda the next step they seize the means and eventually go nuts due to the greedy nature of humanity all the power in one place leads to these sorts of dictatorships
@YoYoMango, stop making sense. It doesn't always go down well with some of the locals
@ThatGuyx79, roads, police, fire departments, healthcare (including Medicare/Medicaid/VA in the US), education, public utilities, libraries, the military, public parks, public toilets, public drinking fountains, and public transportation such as trains and buses.
@AnonymousArsonist, that’s not socialism. Socialism and social assistance are not synonymous. Socialism is government run capitalism. It’s when the free market and the means of production becomes dominated or run wholly by the state.
Not a single one of the things you listed counts as socialism.
There are legitimate roles of government.
@AnonymousArsonist, I see this line of reasoning more of a fallacy then a real argument. The idea that socialism is just a proactive government, is the equivalent of a strawman. The reason of the construction of any government, let alone a liberal democracy (USA and Europe). Some things you stated are under the government's purview, such as roads, police, fire departments, and the military these are specific examples of what the government is made for. All the other stuff is fat, health-care is the obvious punching bag for either the US or EU, it's a massive drain on the treasury and it over steps the boundaries of government. Education is it complete another failure, turning into propaganda machines that dole out useless masses that call for the government to grow. Where I'll agree the additions of certain features assist with everyday life for those that can't afford it, libraries, public parks, public drinking water, and public transport are things the wider society can provide.
@I Are Lebo, the only thing socialism is synonymous with is cancer. Once it's implanted in the host, it eats away at the core of the body until it's cut out or it kills the body.
Socialism is cancer.
@That one lurker, it’s a little more insidious than cancer. Socialism uses capitalism to promote the idea of a utopic state without considering long term viability. The inevitability is that socialist states overreach their capabilities by trying to provide everything from employment to private care to all of its citizens, while simultaneously removing all the benefits from being innovative or or going above and beyond what’s required. The end result is always massive stagnation and then starvation.
@YoYoMango, As an economist, I’m going to have to stop you right here. There is no socialism in the US nor are the countries in Europe you are thinking of or trying to get other people to consider socialist. (such as the Scandinavian countries following social capitalism, e.g. market economies with heavy governmental intervention, many social policies— which are completely and entirely serrate from socialism and have fvck all to do with it— private property rights, as opposed to communal/nationalized ownership of means of production and a capitalistic, instead of command structure.)
Just so you’re clear, people conflate the term “democratic socialism” with “social capitalism” the Scandanavian economies in Europe, and the growing movement in the US are both examples of social capitalism, (not democratic socialism) and are diametrically opposed to command economy systems like socialism.
@YoYoMango, yes, hello stock trader from NYC, AKA YoYoMango, I could use some of your riches to buy a used car and fund my college education.
@I Are Lebo, so if those are not examples of socialism. That means universal healthcare isn’t socialism? Since that was one of their examples. So all this time the claims about universal healthcare being socialism are wrong and is just a propaganda tactic?
I’m not really in this argument. I’m just pointing that out. It’s something I noticed since the common phrase word used for universal healthcare is socialism.
@YoYoMango, I like being part of this community. Not that im very active but it is interesting to see current political topics and some memes altogether at once. For this case-and I know that Im walking here over landmines, especially when talking about topics around socialism, I cannot agree that the problem is the "socialism" this time.
@Seohn, those who decry universal healthcare as socialism are wrong. Healthcare isn’t socialism, how it’s paid for can be. If all doctors are government employees who have all of their pricing and services dictated to them, that’s socialism. If private practices are prohibited, that’s socialism.
Otherwise it’s often a shill tactic used to defame people who would be in favour of a more caring and involved society. In Canada I have access to free healthcare but it’s not socialist because those doctors are working of their own volition and they’re being paid for their services, it’s just that the money is coming from tax revenue. High taxes isn’t socialism.
@80think08, the issue with Venezuela isn’t strictly speaking directly because of socialism. The problem is that socialism disincentivizes hard work and innovation, and when the leadership becomes corrupt in such a situation, it quickly becomes catastrophic.
Corruption is a fact of life, and socialism (as well as communism) are much more vulnerable to systematic failures as a result of corruptive influence than capitalism.
Maduro got to power through socialism and through socialism starved his people. That wouldn’t be able to happen that way under capitalism, especially a democratic capitalism supported by checks and balances.
@YoYoMango, yo what stocks should I buy?
@DividedAlliance, I’ll tell you one. If you want long term stability with some solid growth potential, buy up NextEra Energy ($NEE). They’re the biggest utility and have a massive stake in renewable energy.
@YoYoMango, thanks for the tip
@DividedAlliance, and hold on to that stock for at least 10 years. Treat it like a savings account
@YoYoMango, when I think "savings account" I think adding money to it each paycheck. Same logic apply to this? Or should I just sit on it?
@DividedAlliance, it’s not a bad idea. But I’d try to do it more strategically. As in, initial lump sum, then another lump sum when (or if) the price comes down after at least a couple weeks. That’s called averaging down. Also, it gives a decent dividend, which you could use as income or you could just reinvest the dividends
@YoYoMango, it is also a great example of how controlling currency exchange and price fixing doesn't work.
@I Are Lebo, I dont believe that the socialistic aspect of Venezuela is the main reason, that is causing the current epidemic of problems for Venezuela. I too dont think that calling out to socialism is the right base for argumentation as everyone seems to have a different picture of what socialism or influence of socialism is about or what is being considered socialistic, which seems to tend to reach even in social structures that dont have much to do with socialism or their ideologie. Im not willing to defend socialism or whatever ideologie is behind it. I dont believe that it is a working constitution either. But I am kind of disappointed that the only reasoning for Venezuela current situation lies in its socialistic aspect. The focus seems to be shifted and focused on a ratger popular, mainstream topic instead of the international influence, that have eber since occured in South America.
@80think08, then I did not get my message across clearly. I’ll try again.
Maduro’s corruption is the primary cause of the situation in Venezuela. He is a tyrant and a dictator. However, the establishment of socialism is why there is rampant starvation there. When the government controls the means of production, stagnation always follows because socialism seeks to even the playing field (in this way socialism and communism are very similar) and the ONLY way to eliminate income inequality is for everyone to be equally poor. When people who don’t work receive benefits and those who go above and beyond get the same rewards as those who do the bare minimum, hard workers will stop being hard workers.
When production is run by the government, innovation isn’t rewarded because innovation is inefficient to apply.
It’s much easier to replace smartphones every year or two with an upgraded model, but agricultural patents usually are bought and suppressed because swapping out farm grow-op
equipment is very expensive.
In a socialist state where the means of production are government run, the means of production also cease being upgraded because beurocracy demands efficiency.
My point is that the system of Socialism is untenable long term on its own, but that it is also quite susceptible to corrupted leadership, especially if the head of the state is an individual rather than a council.
Having said that, the USA isn’t going to become a socialist state even if Bernie gets elected in 2020. It’s simply not going to happen. The checks and balances, as well as the Supreme Court will not allow it to happen. Private property is too important to the constitutional republic that is America for the government to be able to start seizing company’s assets.
@I Are Lebo,
I think the main reason why Venezuela is going down economically is simply because of the sanctions and the embargo of their main ressource. I mean if you got Oil trading on, it doesnt really matter what kind of polotical system you have, you will still be over water. Refering here on Saudi Arabia for example.
Dont you think it is kinda odd how much attention Venezuela gets, as an American? I mean people die in Middle America at the same rate as in any warzone in central Africa bc of corruption ( like seriously u can google it) yet the US helps and cares about Venezuela. Have you heard of the Orinoco belt?
Its kinda difficult to write all the stuff. It ends up being a whole essay. Gosh Id love to discuss in person with you. Btw I dont hate America or anything. I wanted to write a long story about countries and stuff aswell but it gets just too long.
I agree with u that socialism is not very useful too btw ( and Im not a lefty or righty or whatever)
@I Are Lebo, it got too long I need to stop xD
@80think08, no way. I don’t buy for a minute that embargos are the issue. There were official governmental messages advising people to eat their pets to survive the food shortages. The embargos aren’t to restrict them from having food, the food is being redistributed. Maduro and his men aren’t starving.
It’s a very (ignorant) American attitude to think that American attention means that much to the status of a country. WHO and many other charitable and aid based organizations exist wholly outside of American interest groups.
America isn’t the world police, nor are they the worlds saviours. That’s American propaganda at work.
(Not saying you are willfully spreading propaganda I’m just pointing out that it references propaganda)
This very well done and way too true.
Oddly perfect loop
@SimonPetrikov, these debates feel like perfect loops.
I demand more of these
Getting a little hot under the collar for the rich ain’t it? Course that could just be climate change
@Captain Anderson, well I definitely don’t want a stagnant climate. That’d be quite boring
Really makes you think how everyone says Venezuela is "true socialism" despite their fact that a large majority of their economy is in the private sector. It really makes you think doesn't it
America will NEVER be socialist 🤷
Too fast can’t reads it
I can stick to pieces of bread between my dick and call it a sandwich...I don’t know where I was going with this one
All of the villains from mermaid man and barnacle boy could have been stands
@Prince super Vegeta , Dirty Bubble?
@Jdrawer, [DIRTY BUBBLES BLOWN at BASELINE PRICE」-B3P