She straight up looks like Prince Charming
everyone at my old job quit or were laid off due to new corporate policies that are ‘preparing’ for this $15 minimum wage raise. only a fraction of a fraction remain, and they are all new hires.
@Z0IDBERG, what was your company?
@YoYoMango, regal entertainment group, i was a manager at one of the theatres
I’m no doctor, but I’m pretty sure she was just being sarcastic...
@freakaschnitz, some what. At the time this took place it was a hard quistion for min wage advocates to answer. Mostly because it was an arbitrary number to rally behind.
@freakaschnitz, I think she was trying to strawman.
@Jdrawer, That's not a strawman.
I'll take cocaine and unicorns 8 days a week thank you very much.
I miss John Stewart
Do you want communism? Because that's how you get communism.
@The Flame War, if raising wages means you’re a communist, then color me red comrade
@YoYoMango, I mean raising it so high that money becomes essentially worthless.
@The Flame War, it’s worth noting that wages prior to 1970, including the minimum wage, used to move at the rate of productivity. Had that continued then the minimum wage would be a little over $20 an hour. Also, had it kept up with inflation, then it’d be about $14 an hour right now. So a $15 minimum wage is actually quite reasonable. The question should be why have wages, especially the minimum wage, been suppressed for so long.
@YoYoMango, I agree with you. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a $1000 minimum wage
@The Flame War, ah I see. I thought you were referencing the $15. Good talk then!
@YoYoMango, No obviously not.
@YoYoMango, I have no doubt the about the upper portions of your argumentation.
The reason why minimum wage is "suppressed" mostly involves low skilled workers and low paying jobs. It's a bar to entery against people coming into the job market. It henders the growth of new businesses and puts people out of work.
Let's say you was working for me your work earns me 10 dollars, we agree in a contract that you'll get 7 back. If a new minimum wage law comes in changing it from 6 to 8. That fine, I'll not have that extra money to reinvest back into my company but a little growth is better than no growth. If it changes once again from 8 to 10 or even to 11, what good would that do? I would get fined and you would be out of the job.
It's not a stretch to say that this makes start ups nearly impossible to have. This only helps out corporations, if you look to see who was lobbying in favor for the fight for 15 campaign you would see that it was Wal-Mart and McDonald's.
@That one lurker, I understand your premise. However, a higher minimum wage certainly does not make start ups impossible. Most start up companies do not pay minimum wage to begin with. A personal example, in my home in northern New Jersey, there’s a new landscaping and snow removal start up that enters the market seemingly every week. I have yet to meet anyone who runs these start ups, or who works at these start ups, who get paid a poverty wage of less than $15/hr. Now I could explain and discuss for hours how rising wages, especially for low income earners, increases the demand for nearly every type of normal good, and I will if you want to, but I’d rather not. Also, I’d recommend reading a couple pieces from the heritage foundation, bloomberg, and WSJ about why exactly companies like Walmart want a higher minimum wage. Simply put, low income earners getting a pay raise would drastically increase demand for their goods and services
@YoYoMango, there is a slight difference there, I'm sure you're not meaning it to be malicious, with my short hand and encroaching word cap I attempted to abbreviate. I was stating the growth of the start up is impossible. If entrepreneurs are attempting to meet a quick need and then disappear it's different from setting up an actual business. It's more or less a Community charity at that point.
For the next half I understand, it'd be a long drawn-out conversation that may get no where. I disagree with Keynesians economic theorie, and debating that with you would take a better half of a week.
I'll leave the last part by saying the anti-competitive nature of Walmart is understandable. If they want to help show the US that 15 min wage is fine, why don't they do it in their stores first. Why lobby the government to force them to do it? It's been shown when these big businesses start to shell out the extra coin they trim the fat like everyone else.
@That one lurker, I would rather people work and earn money, then not work because they're unqualified.
@YoYoMango, well, to answer your question as to why the minimum wage has been suppressed for so long, you have to look at it from an economic standpoint. Ultimately though the why is simple...it's because you touch yourself at night.
@YoYoMango, I own and operate a startup. It has been running over a year now. I’ve yet to even pay myself. I am the only employee other than a bookkeeper. It varies business to business. Some startups have crazy overhead, that only turns profitable after a while. Sometimes that overhead would be increased per employee. Some startups have very little overhead and can pay everyone 20 bucks an hour. But one thing you’ve left out is how this also drives the demand for that job sky high. In my area there are tons of lawn care companies too. But A) there is severe competition, and B) the consumer feels price changes immensely and if able, usually will do it themselves rather than pay a relatively high wage per person to do it. Businesses like mine, with high overhead, have less competition. I certainly have competitors. But we are talking a handful in the state, rather than 10 within a mile.
@YoYoMango, the value of labor is highly dependent on complexity of work and the skill level of who can do it. The minimum wage makes many jobs and many workers economically untenable. Raising minimum wage ultimately disenfranchises the lowest skilled workers doing the lowest skilled jobs.
I think imposing minimum wages is unethical. Two consenting parties should be able to trade any goods and services at any rate they agree upon.
A society with a higher median wage would be a great thing. But one that imposes it by law does so by violating the freedoms of its citizens.
@YoYoMango, could you tell me where you got your info? The most recent I can find for minimum wage adjusted for today’s dollars says that in 1970 the minimum wage was 1.60 which was equal to 9.74 in 2015. Granted I cant find anything more recent than 2015 but I don’t think it would have went up that much more in 4 years. This isn’t trying to say you are wrong I seriously would like to see other info if you can point me the way
@YoYoMango, boo, north jersey sucks. South jersey is way better.
@Mkb617, this one has a good chart about where the min wage would be based on productivity https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/how-much-higher-the-federal-minimum-wage-should-be-2017-12
@efdmech, interesting perspective, however, I’d argue the opposite. Contrary to popular belief, America doesn’t have a very efficient free market system. We have an economy that’s dominated by the largest businesses and the wealthiest make all the rules. Today, workers have very little bargaining power. Abolishing the minimum wage would guarantee businesses would pay absurdly low wages that no one could ever survive on. Looking back in history, FDR and Henry Ford believed that a business shouldn’t even be able to exist in America if they aren’t willing to pay a livable wage. This of course was back when workers had much more bargaining power, and most unskilled labor paid you well enough to buy a house and two cars. Now if today we had a much more efficient free market where there were no monopolies or oligopolies, workers had significantly more bargaining power, and the rules were created by the very richest, then I would agree in abolishing the minimum wage.
@Fatpossum, I work in NYC and went to school in West Virginia , and whenever someone asks me where I’m from, I always make sure to say I’m from northern NJ. I don’t want to be associated with those southern jersey pork rollers 😉
@YoYoMango, I too went to school in West Virginia so I’ll let you have that one.
@Fatpossum, was it wvu?
@YoYoMango, why yes it was. Class of 2014. There’s a fvckin pipeline from NJ to WV, I swear.
@Fatpossum, that’s amazing! Seriously though, NJ students make up the most out of state students
@YoYoMango, I lived in a town of about 15000 people. My high school senior class had 150 people. 8 of us went to WVU. I was always running into people from all over jersey there. I probably met more people from jersey at wvu than actual West Virginians.
@Fatpossum, wow lol I’m so glad no one from my high school went there. I thought the nj stereotypes sucked until I went to West Virginia. I’d much rather have the jersey shore stereotypes than the incest ones in WV lol
@YoYoMango, for sure, though where I live, it’s all stupid Hicks and dumb redneck sh!t.
@Fatpossum, where did you live? I lived on falling run rd. Also my first year I was in stalnaker
@YoYoMango, I spent two years in pierpont before I dropped out. That place sucked but it was close to 80% of my classes. Did a little too much partying and was in engineering, and that turned out to be a bad combo. But whatever, I probably got my $55k worth.
@Fatpossum, lol nice yea I was marketing major so most of my classes were literally just a 5-10 minute walk away. Super convenient
@YoYoMango, the point of a free market is that its self correcting. If wages were so low that the workers would literally not be able to survive on it then they wouldn't have any workers.... No workers, no business. Liveable wage, sustainable business.
Whenever you have a hypothetical situation in a free market you have to apply time. Yes, it would be possible for a company like Walmart to pay their workers 25c/hr without minimum wage laws but could they sustain it? Could Walmart survive a decade with that policy... no. If you argue that a business would be more successful by paying their workers more then statistically speaking a majority of longterm businesses and brands would inevitably have higher wages.
The ethics of my original argument don't change. If I want to work for $7/hr because I need the job and I don't think my skills are marketable at $15/hr then it's unethical to make my pursuit of work unlawful.
@YoYoMango, the one positive of pierpont was that McDonald’s is a 1 min walk from there.
@That one lurker, it’s quite simple. If an employee is making you less than the minimum wage, then you shouldn’t have another employee in your business as a salary/full timer. You’re not ready to expand your enterprise yet.
@YoYoMango, I’m not in favor of increasing minimum wage, at least not at the rate which California is doing it at. I understand the gap between inflation and minimum wage is high, but we all know that companies aren’t giving up their money. They shift that price onto the customers, and those also include people with increased minimum wage. This doesn’t just mean things like clothes and food. Rent, gas, and I’m pretty sure everything besides the costco food court menu ends up rising in price. Not saying that the principles are wrong, it’s just that the companies are going to be as cost effective as possible, and that means making sure there are no losses.
Yall ever heard of infation?
@I grade all memes, I have never heard of “infation”
@I grade all memes, god damn it, I don't know who started this ridiculous idea or why it's so prevalent but just to be totally clear
RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE DOES NOT, WILL NOT, AND CAN NOT CAUSE INFLATION
For more realistic arguments both for and against $15 minimum wage based on some modicum of truth, see above comments
@Donald Drumpf, my guess, and I could be wrong, is that he was saying minimum wage should go up because of inflation.
Raising the minimum wage will result in mass layoffs as jobs become automated out of existence. Say a kiosk to order food adds a onetime 20k charge to McDonald’s budget and an employee currently costs 15k per year. They’re saving money right now even though there would be long term savings. As soon as that employee costs as much as the kiosk he’s gonna get fired because they will save a ton of money for a long time.
@BigJohnson86, McDonalds has already been putting in self serve kiosks to their locations. You can still ask the cashier to place an order, it just depends which has the longer wait
@BigJohnson86, keeeping the minimum wage low means tax payers just subsidize corporations since these people get help through them. Not to mention machines for ordering are already becoming common place even at this low wage. Raising the wage will actually give people more money that they will spend.
@Soy un Ranchero, I know that’s why I used it. But if they gotta pay a bunch more to cashiers how many more kiosks do you think will appear?
@Implicit88, that assumes more people actually get the money. If 10 people are getting $10/hr and a company automates 5 of those jobs out because it’s cheaper than paying $15/hr then less money is being given to those workers overall. So it’s basically giving some people a hand and punishing others at the discretion of companies who will get the benefits.
@BigJohnson86, automation is a non issue. Automation will happen regardless of the min wage. Machines are cheaper than people in almost every case. Even a machine/kiosk costing 100k will pay itself off within 5 years at the current min wage. Plus every kiosk can be updated easily and doesn’t need to be trained or given vacation sick time or benefits. Problem is when automation rate job creation rate in a growing population. In the current market raising the min wage will not cause automation, amazon increased min wage and no layoffs mean while att and verizon lay off thousand of working even though wages were low.
@Implicit88, then why haven’t they already automated all of those jobs out? Because high upfront costs also include loss of revenue over that time. It’s why more companies don’t just front the cost more. It’s not just the 100k for the machine. It’s the interest that money would make while invested.
Layoffs occur when profit isn’t sufficient to support costs. Att has little to automate the jobs out of any more so it’s a poor example in that sense. You can get a plan and a phone to your house without speaking to an American at all. But it does provide an interesting example of how minimum wages and guaranteed jobs are not always a good thing. Tim pool did a video about how he had to get a phone in Venezuela while shooting a documentary that goes into detail about it but the forced handing out of money for jobs like those at the phone store are a huge problem with the uncontrolled inflation they’ve been suffering from.
One problem with raising the federal minimum wage to more than double what it is now is that other wages that are already there or are just over it will not go up the same amount. That means that people who are working their first job ever or who have no speciality training will be making equal to many people who have put in the time, and often money to learn extra skills, or those who have been around a long time at their jobs. What motivation would there be to do that training or stick around at a job for 10 or 15 years if you are making the same as someone who knows nothing and are on their first days? The average wage for an EMT is just a little over $16. Why go through the training and the heartache that can go with scraping people off the roads for an extra dollar an hour when you can just go flip burgers?
@Mkb617, Because I don’t want to flip burgers. I want to help people and make their lives better. EMT’s should be paid more than $16 an hour, anyway. That’s barely a living wage as it is, and anyone who dedicates their lives to such a cause deserves better.
@Mkb617, you argument makes no sense, if you think people will keep working for $15 because its easier than getting a degree you are poorly mistaken. Education is on the rise even though a bachelors degree is now equivalent to a high school degree. If you raise the min wage other wages will go up. The problem with such a low wage is that it is basically a subsidy to businesses, tax payers are paying for these companies to have artificially low wages. There is no reason why 2 working people should make 30k a year and not be able to afford housing. When adjusted for 2018 dollars, median wages have barely increased over the period of 55 years. Meanwhile house costs 3 to 4 times the amount and healthcare has increased exponentially. The artificial minimum wage is actually hurting growth and the economy.
@Berntley, agreed emt’s should be paid more, problem is the wage looks good when compared to min.
@Berntley, I agree 100% that Emt’s and many others should make more and that many do it because they love it. I am a CNA making minimum wage because I love taking care of people. I just don’t think that doubling the minimum wage will solve the problem. Businesses that contract for those services will just cut back services and quality of service, just like fast food places adding kiosks
@Implicit88, well for one thing I didn’t say people would keep working for $15 because it is easier than getting a degree. I said jobs that now make around $15 an hours and require extra training of some sort would suffer when you could make the same without a degree. You are right that education is (somewhat) on the rise, but it is actually lower than its peak in 2010 and isn’t projected to hit that amount again until the mid 2020’s. The median wage (adjusted for inflation) has actually gone up each of the last few years, similar to education. Although, the buying power of that money is only equal to about what it was in the mid 1970’s. The problem is that the higher end makes more while the lower end makes less. Assuming other wages will go up because the minimum wage goes up is taking a scary chance. When I was a kid and first working, when minimum wage went up, everyone where I worked for the same bump. That is not the way it works anymore. There are two main ways that businesses
@Implicit88, control their profits. What they charge and labor costs. If you double their labor costs, they are going to cut back their employees or increase what they charge. I am not saying we shouldn’t give people at the lower end of the economic scale more, I believe we should, I grew up in that end. I just don’t believe the sudden more the doubling of minimum wage Is the cure
@Mkb617, you have to regulate min wage because businesses will pay the least possible if there was no min wage it would even be worse. California is on track for a min wage of 15 and there has been no massive layoffs or anything of that sort. Again increasing min wage does not make jobs go away. A failing business model is what lays off people. Businesses can always charge slightly more to makeup the wage diff.
@Mkb617, median was has only increases (when adjusted for inflation) by a few dollars over the course of 55 years. The small increase isnt meaningful over such a long period of time and is actually stagnating. Meanwhile purchasing power has substantially decreases. A house and insurance can easily cost you 20k a year (about 6k more than the fed min wage). Education decreased due to the recession as people were finding out that you would graduate with debt and have no job.
@Mkb617, i believe everyone is proposing a increase over many years not an instant increase. What people dont account for is that when regular people get more money they spend it. A doubling in labor cost does not mean a doubling in selling price for most businesses, labor costs are usually just a part of the total expense. Increase the sale price and people wont mind since they are making more. The business will also likely make more sales since people will have more money to spend. Someone making min wage makes 15k a year, median rent cost is 14400 a year, median healthcare provided by an employee (premium paid by employee) is 7k for a family. Total is 21k, assuming 2 incomes in a household that leaves 9k left assuming you pay no state or federal taxes. (Note 6k is taxable at the federal level). This hasnt even gotten into regular expenses, the tight budget is insane and most of these people receive aid from the government, in other words tax payers foot the bill for min wage of
@Implicit88, it just doesnt make any sense why we should subsidize businesses that pay low, we should force then to pay a livable wage.
@Implicit88, there is not a lot of real world examples to prove one way or another which of us would be right. In Seattle where they started this same kind of incremental raise to $15, low income workers hours have been cut by 9% which has cost them on average $125 a month. I will admit that this was as of a year and a half ago, so may have gotten better or worse since then.
@Mkb617, it has actually gotten better since then. Seattle was a fast increase which causes uncertainty and wage loss, however doing this over a period of time mitigates any damage as sales and prices are able to adapt much easier.
@Implicit88, I thought Seattle was going up between $1 to $1.50 a year from 2015-2021 which is similar to what California is doing? Which is an example you used earlier. Anyways I appreciate the debate we have had and the fact neither of us got nasty towards the other, but I really should be studying and I will say that I honestly hope you are right even though I don’t see it happening that way.
@Mkb617, so state wages are going up incrementally ($.50 then 1.50). Seattle raised wages suddenly to 12 + 3 in benefitsfor small business or $16 for large (over 500 employees) in increments of 1.50 i think. I think its a good start but ideally min wage should also be tied to a mix of profits/revenue/employees excluding employees earning 3 times the median wage along with a cost of living adj (+/-). Our new system really needs to be dynamic. Good luck studying, yes it was a good conversation.
I seem to have missed the funny in all the social commentary.
@Belesarius, well, you are suppose to see the funny before you see the commentary, that is if there is funny to be seen.
*raises minimum wage*
*local businesses raise prices*
Correction layoffs occur when a business is failing, not when profits are low. True the upfront cost is high but it will only get lower as technology improves independent of the minimum wage. From what you described on your phone example is not what im proposing. I am proposing a min wage increase not a job loss guarantee. With that, in the future we will need ubi as jobs will decrease. (Unless people are paid at least at the cost of living)
I’ve never really liked John Stewart. Most of his comedy comes from mocking people, which breeds contempt towards the people he mocks and towards himself for acting mean. Not to mention because of him we have all these political stooges that pretend to be talk show hosts or comedians on late night tv nowadays.
Maybe get some marketable skills so you’re worth more money to your employer