Yeah fvck science im a fvckin apache helicopter bltches
@smii7y, is it bad that I read that in smii7y's voice?
You have 3 options male, female, or none of the above beyond that I will laugh at you
@eleven, how can you be "none of the above"?
@Snarfel Burger, you can't, that's the joke
@Masta Roshi, i'm slow, sorry...
@Snarfel Burger, you can absolutely be none of the above. how? you just don't feel like either, same way some people feel like men and some people feel like women. lots of cultures have third genders.
@Snarfel Burger, gruesome hunting accident?
@Ruupasya, emphasis on the word "feel"
@Ruupasya, lots of cultures have a neutral gender to describe something that is neither masculine nor feminine in feature. This is not a biological gender but rather a linguistic one for grammatical purposes.
For example, in Russian language and culture, lamps are feminine, desks are masculine, and chairs are neither, and thus neutral. Russian grammar hinges on different conjugations for words with different genders, hence why something that is neither masculine nor feminine must have a neutral gender. Russian culture still only acknowledges male and female biological genders.
You either have a penis or a vagina; this determines your gender. If you have a penis but feel like a girl, you are an effeminate guy and if you have a vagina but feel like a dude, you're a tomboy. If you feel like neither, you're androgynous. It's all personality, not gender.
@Not Actually a Corgi, gender is not the same thing as sex. many cultures have people that identify as a third gender and that are accepted as such in that culture. Look up the Hawaiian mahu, the Native American two-spirit, the hijras in India, the Calabai, Calalai, and Bissu in Indonesia, and more. Just because your culture doesn't recognize more than two genders, that doesn't make it wrong or unreal.
@Ruupasya, In the English language gender and sexuality are synonymous with one another, therefore there are only two genders, and similarly there are only two sexes. You can define yourself however you wish, but know that when people state "There are more than two genders," that they are completely, and utterly, incorrect. Sorry for my long post.
@Ze Grammar Nazi, the language of it doesn't really matter. it comes second. also, language evolves, which it is doing now. there are three sexes: male, female, and intersex. there are three or more genders: man, woman, and non-binary/agender/etc. i know you're "ze grammar nazi" but don't let language keep you from respecting the way people feel.
@Ruupasya, I do respect how they, but that doesn't change the fact that people who say that there are more than two genders are wrong. Yes, languages can and will change with time, but if the meaning of a word could change at the whims of every minority group on the planet, then language would have no structure. Nothing to keep it stable. Language is how we as human beings express ourselves. If the language has no structure, then no meaning can be discerned from it. That is why I hate when minority groups try to change the meanings of age old words in a matter of years, and I despise it when they get irate and angry about people correcting them when they abuse what little faculties they have over the language they speak.
@Ze Grammar Nazi, but third gender people have existed and been recognized for decades in other cultures. so why can't we have a word for that? Sweden adopted a new gender-neutral pronoun. Why can't we say that there are more than two genders? And we're not really changing the word. Synonyms are rarely perfect synonyms, what would be the point? Each synonym has different nuances of meaning. So, gender is different, at least a little bit, from sex. If people are arguing that there are more than two genders, why do you care? Also, even if gender and sex are perfect synonyms, biological sex is a spectrum that could be labeled with three labels: male, intersex, female. so saying that there are three genders (man, non-binary, woman) would fit with the three labeled sexes. it's really not a big deal.
@Ruupasya, our culture and almost all of historical cultures recognize two genders because gender is referring to physiological differences that DO exist between people born with penises and people born with vaginas.. that's why when someone wants to change, they are overloaded with certain hormones to help them get closer to those clear and undeniable physiological differences. However, that is it. There's nothing else. Changing genders is by no means making a new one. People an do whatever they want, but to say that there's more than two, is completely false. Some are born with a penis, some are born with vaginas, end of story
@Ruupasya, "The language of it doesn't really matter." I absolutely agree with this 100%. Because, see, no matter how many hormone pills you take or what you have chopped off or added on, it's just language. In reality it's the science that matters. That's why chromosomes determine which gender you are, binarily. Because there's two. How you "feel" is semantic. Not fact.
@Ze Grammar Nazi, Gender and Sexuality are different things, Sexuality and the Sexes are different things. You can't go around making proclamations about gender without even understanding the terminology, I mean come on.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , Look it up. I'll wait. Gender and Sexuality are DEFINED as synonymous by both The Webster's Dictionary and The Oxford Dictionary. Check your facts before spouting nonsense.
@Ze Grammar Nazi, The dictionary changes all the time, you're building your house on sand. Gender and gender expression are totally different and separate from sexual orientation and Sexuality. Ask literally anyone who is variant in any one of those.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , "Gender expression” refers to the ways in which we each manifest masculinity or femininity. It is usually an extension of our “gender identity,” our innate sense of being male or female. Each of us expresses a particular gender every day – by the way we style our hair, select our clothing, or even the way we stand."
@KeKesUHaulFacility , Also, please refer to one of my previous comments on how minority groups shouldn't be able to change the definition of a word based on a whim.
@Ze Grammar Nazi, "A whim" and a need to do away with hundreds and hundreds of years of intimidation, discrimination, abuse, and violence are not the same thing. I'm glad you've never had to defend your humanity and experience to anyone but that doesn't mean other people doing it are wrong or whimsical. Also, you say minority groups trying to make the point that just because they don't align with the hegemony they should be discounted, but minority groups still account for millions of people so that just doesn't work.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , Yes. A whim. They have not gone through the proper channels to be recognized, like every other minority group. They do it for the sake of trying garner attention to themselves by berating others for "Assuming their gender" or offending them in some asinine way. So, yes. They are changing the definitions of these words on a whim. There has not been hundreds of years of discrimination or violence against people who like to believe they are a non-existent third or fourth gender type, simply because of the fact that this is a relatively new idea that is spreading through all the 'Special Snowflakes' of the modern generation. This is the reality of the world we live in. They will more than likely never have a chance in this generation. It will take decades upon decades for them to be acknowledged, just how it took decades for those of African decent to be recognized, just like it took decades for women to be recognized, and like how it took HUNDREDS of years for...
@KeKesUHaulFacility , homosexuals to be formally recognized. And yet you have the gall and audacity to assume you can force a new idea onto a population in a scant few years? Learn your place. Earn respect through the proper channels. Then MAYBE, you might have chance at having your ideals recognized. Until then don't speak to me any further.
@Ze Grammar Nazi, WHAT? What sort of farang, slave master, Jeffery Dahmer, control freak nonsense??? Cis, straight white men never had to go through any channels to get basic respect and acknowledgement, why should anyone else have to? You're being ridiculous, you can't regulate who gets humanity and who doesn't.
I don't think that we should force everyone to learn every thing about gender. At the same time I don't think we should crucify people who maybe seem like sensitive or even offended when they feel mocked or excluded because of their alternative gender and maybe we should be more understanding because those people have probably gone through a lot of crap because of all this.
@The Imp, saying you're born as something that no one else is or can understand is pretentious, egotistical, and insane. Claiming you're special because of your made up gender is just a way for insecure people to bolster their fragile sense of self worth.
@Polaroid, no body is saying that they're a completely different gender from everybody else. Even if they are who are you to judge? This isn't the 50's, we shouldn't be judging people for trying to be who they feel like they really are. Also most trans people aren't claiming thay this makes them special they are just people trying to live their lives. Maybe some people like to use that to get attention but there are billions of people in the world so stuff like that is bound to happen. I don't know if you've had a bad experience with this stuff or if you just got all of your education from an unreliable source either way you have very wrong views on the whole matter.
@The Imp, Gender isn't something you can choose. Just like you can't choose who your parents are. Science is not based on feelings or insecurities, it's based on facts and the fact is, there is and always will be only two genders.
@Polaroid, Maybe biologically, but emotionally there are a pleathera of options to choose from. If somebody want to say that they are agender or refer to themselves as afab why not let them? Why judge them or tell them they can only choose between two options? We live in an age of emotional freedom. Are lives don't have to be controlled by science. Ps this doesn't really have to do with my argument but I think its pretty hubristic of you to say that there will always only be one gender. You don't know what evolution will create.
@The Imp, hubris eh? Ever heard of a hypocrite? Keep your silly "emotional freedoms" to yourself and don't ever force them onto me or anybody else.
@Polaroid, The first thing I said in my comment is that we shouldn't force these ideas on people. Also I will not keep these to myself. I will proudly stick up for what I know is right.
@The Imp, you need proof of what is right and I have proof you are wrong.
@Polaroid, I have not argued with you from a biological stand point. I have talked about an emotional stand point. You don't have proof that people don't actually feel how they say they do or proof that we should deny them their emotional freedoms. You cant have proof for that.
@The Imp, if I said I wanted to emotionally kill everyone in sight who are you to stop me?
@Polaroid, what does it mean to emotionally kill someone?
@The Imp, what does it mean to emotionally be a different gender?
@Polaroid, it means you feel like you are a different gender from the one you were born as.
@The Imp, then you're discontent with who you really are and are like a turtle that wishes it was born a bird.
@Polaroid, yes, they are discontent with the person they were born as, or at least with certain parts. That analogy does kind of work. We know that the turtle will never biologically be a bird but why would we discourage the turtle from doing what it can to feel like its living a full life as the person it wants to be when its doing no harm. Also the analogy isn't perfect because with a transgender person they can have gender reassignment surgery. With the other alternative genders it works better but what they identify as isn't really a pre-existing thing. Like I've said its more a state of mind.
@The Imp, it's doing harm to itself telling itself that it's that it will truly be and frustrating and inconveniencing everybody else by claiming to be it. Can a gazelle expect not to be eaten by a lion because it always wanted to be one?
@Polaroid, Once again the alternative genders are an emotional thing and are not really like wanting to become a different species. We are not wild animals we have developed emotionally past only having basic instincts and with this emotional development eventually comes complicated feelings. Also these people don't feel incomplete. They feel as if they are emotionally at the place they should be. That feeling makes them feel complete. Also please do not say something along the lines of “they can't actually feel complete they probably just think that” because you can't pretend to know their emotions better than they do. I can't either, i'm going off articles I've read of interviews I've seen or things my friends have told me. Finally, I do not understand why someone would be frustrated or inconvenienced by someone identify as a different gender. I may be wrong but I feel like you could have had a bad experience or heard a story of someone who was up in your or someone else's face about
@The Imp, this stuff. Because you mentioned earlier people trying to force these ideas onto you or others. It's a big world with a lot of people, every group if bound to have people like this. If this did happen then I'm sorry it did. If I am completely wrong then I'm sorry for the assumption and you may ignore this part.
@The Imp, how hubristic of you to assume my background because of my point. Using the Ad Hominem fallacy on me? You're gonna need more than that. I'll just close this whole argument by saying you're only going to make yourself go insane.
@Polaroid, I never mentioned anything about you during the argument until my last point and I did not attack your character nor assume anything about your background. I simply gave a guess as to why you have this point of view and admitted that I could be wrong so its definitely not Ad Hominem. I also feel as if you know this and are only using it as an excuse to end the argument either because you have no response or are just tired of the conversation. Either way if you no longer wish to debate I will respect that and write nothing more to you past this unless prompted.
@The Imp, The problem with transgenderism isn't about how we treat them or how society wants to push this SJW mentality on us. The main point is the high suicide rates in that specific community, and feeding their delusions doesn't help. Why don't we all drop the Bullshjt name calling on all sides and come together to help these mentally ill people.
@Autismo, the suicide rates come from these people being bullied and harrased which makes them feel like freaks. They are in no way "mentally ill" and the way to help them is by society coming together to accept them for who they are and not making them feel ostracized.
@The Imp, The suicide rates are higher than the jews in the holocaust, so make to me a case that they are being treated worse than new in the holocaust. The only comparable suicide rate is the suicide rate from schizophrenics, that might give you some insight.
@Autismo, nobody is saying they are being treated worse than victims of the holocaust. It really is like comparing apples and oranges. Also we live in a different time. Suicides are more frequent then they were in the 40's. I really don't see why you would try to put this up against the holocaust.
@The Imp, Because you said it was because of the bullying and mistreatment. I explained that suicide rates have only been so high in extreme conditions, and that bullying does not explain why it's so high. So lets stop trying to be accepting and lets help them like we help schizophrenics who have a comparable suicide rate.
@Autismo, it is not a mental disorder. The argument you are making is pretty much the same argument of people who think you can cure gay
@The Imp, Nope, there is No side effects to being gay, when it comes to transgendered they destroy there bodies and hurt themselves, and for what, a mental disorder. You don't give a knife to a schizophrenic who thinks he needs to cut his arm off. Also it is a mental disorder called gender dysphoria, and so far scientists cannot come up with a reason other mental problems as to why a person would think they are the opposite sex.
@Polaroid, Just because you can't understand doesn't mean nobody can. You talk about a fragile sense of self worth but your own arrogance is more indication of that than identifying as nonbinary or agender.
@Autismo, The psychological community has come to a consensus (that's in line with what Trans people have been saying for decades) that the way to help Trans people is to affirm them and their experiences of gender. That's what you can do to help, if you really care like you say you do.
@Autismo, Gender Dysphoria is just that, a dysphoria. Not a disorder, the psych community made that distinction years ago. Catch up.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , Lol I would love some sources for your claim, last time I checked the suicide rates didn't drop after they went through a full transformation, and on top of that a majority of trans people regret the change within 15-20 years. Sources to come.
@Autismo, If your sources are a TERF website and a white supremacist network we're gonna have some problems
@KeKesUHaulFacility , None of that since A.I am not white, and B. Each website sites there sources. Facts are facts regardless of where you get them though.
To be fair a majority don't regret it, but it is around 20% which is still high for something that is said to be the treatment.
@Autismo, Walt Heyer makes his living off of sharing his own experience with gender to conservative churches who want to be convinced that people can just "pray the trans away", not the most reliable source. And didn't I tell you not to come at me with some white supremacist bull like The Federalist? Didn't 👏 I 👏 Tell👏 You??
@KeKesUHaulFacility , my bad, I forgot I can't have reasonable conversations with you.
@Autismo, And if you actually listen to Trans people you'll find that for the most part the people who regret a physical transition feel that way not because they're not Trans, but because they didn't really have an issue with their body in the first place. It was the unnecessary, Gender essentialist connotations attached to their bodies that were the issue. Basically, some boys are fine with having breasts and a vagina but they feel like they need to change that to fit society's expectations of a boys body, and doing anything to please the masses can't lead to fulfillment.
Sex and gender are two different things.
Bring on the downvotes.
@Trademark Toast, while this is true, ascribing personality traits that may be either masculine or feminine in nature or execution to a gender is really quite a dumb thing to do. You are either male or female, and this biological gender is determined by your biological sex. You then have personality traits that change how you act, but just because a female has a gruff voice, likes fixing cars, and smokes cigars, that doesn't make her a man.
People who feel like they have the wrong body (as in transgendered people) are experiencing dysphoria, a real problem that identity politics helped cover up so that now people can't get therapeutic help for it.
@Not Actually a Corgi, but "therapeutic" help can sometimes be hormone treatments. Psychologists can suggest it as a treatment for dysphoria. Psychological states are not often things that can be simply cured, and it's hugely disheartening for people to hear they should just be able to get over or cure their dysphoria when they've tried to their whole lives. I'm just saying, other societies have had room for third or non genders, this isn't something new we just came up with, so is it not possible for us?
Speaking as an actual geneticist, there are many different issues in the X and Y chromosomes. 1 in 2000 people will have some sort of discrepancy. So yes, there are technically more than 2 genders. However, all these "I'm gender fluid poly queen hetero whatever" people are just trying to make themselves feel unique. A doctor will actually diagnose a trans person with gender disassociative identity disorder. You read something online and decided to feel special. You're the anti-vaxxers of the sexuality world.
@Cynic8387, I don't know about that man. It's easy to judge from the outside when we aren't experiencing the dysphoria
@Cynic8387, As an "actual geneticist" and not a psychologist maybe you should face your front and keep quiet about things you don't know about.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , this isn't a psych problem, it's a biological one. So many stop being so triggered when the facts aren't something you like.
@KeKesUHaulFacility , shut up.
*insert 'aliens guy' meme*
When will you guys learn that gender =/= sex. Gender is a psychological construct so you can indeed be nb (nonbinary).
Now does that mean people who identify as toasters are stupid and give the rest a bad rap?
Yes, yes it does.
Maybe biologically, but emotionally there are a pleathera of options to choose from. If somebody want to say that they are agender or refer to themselves as afab why not let them? Why judge them or tell them they can only choose between two options? We live in an age of emotional freedom. Are lives don't have to be controlled by science. Also this doesn't really have to do with my point but I think its pretty hubristic of you to say there will always be only two genders. You don't know what evolution will bring in the future.
Fųck science, I identify as a Walmart toaster this week! Stop oppressing me, bigots!
Notice the definitions of "Gender Identity" and "Gender Expression". Neither of them state anything about there being a third or fourth gender. They both refer to the way we express ourselves as either Male or Female. Yet again, check your facts before staying senseless drivel. Also I never stated that gender, and Sexuality and Sexual Orientation were synonymous. Only gender and sexuality. Please, read before you respond.
Season 3 has been delayed AGAIN!