All countries have barbaric pasts. We can't put modern values on what was considered normal at the time. All we can do is learn from it and not make the mistakes again.
@Albatraous, two points: 1) it’s about being aware of that past, and 2) the fact that it was NOT normal at the time. The British were /officially/ doing some REALLY bad stuff for a long time. Perhaps this can help: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/18/uncovering-truth-british-empire-caroline-elkins-mau-mau
@Hypothetically, also a more readable and recent one.
@Albatraous, We really need to stop this whole “all sides do this” mentality. It’s the laziest form inaccuracy can take. Not all countries had Ghangis Kahn or the Holocaust. Not all countries held a monopoly on slave trade. Of course every country has its ups and downs, but to say “all countries have barbaric pasts” understates the atrocities committed by some countries and overstates events in others. In order to best learn from our history effectively, it requires that we must know our history accurately. Thus, we must understand the severity of these distinctions.
@airguitarpro, fair enough, I phrased it badly and stand corrected. Thank you f8r putting it better
@Hypothetically, why should someone be ashamed of a past that they didn’t participate in?
@Switchblader, because people romanticize most of these countries and sometimes refuse to acknowledge the truth even when it's plainly explained to them.
@Albatraous, dont listen to them theyre massive cuckolds. Your absolutely right practically every culture and nation has a dark past. Or has done something morally irredeemable. Rape, murder, slavery and war was common practice in almost evey culture and nation around the world. And to pretend that one in particular has to be sorry more than any other is rediculous.
@Hypothetically, what are you talking about china, the middle east, africa, native americans all practiced slavery and war at the time. The middle east practiced it in bulk until like the 1930s. India still has its caste system to a certain degree.
Oh you mean their empire phase?
Is that tony soprano?
@WhiteR, That's Jerry Seinfeld
@ Mr Cuymenq, no, that is definitely the subway
@seeUpee, sir, that is a newspaper.
@ Mr Cuymenq, sir... those are man tits
@seeUpee, brother, thats a jacket
@ Mr Cuymenq, I'm pretty sure it's a receding hairline.
No one should be ashamed of their history. Seize this cuckoldry.
@CocoasBro, England didn't cuck Ireland, they fvcked them, and they went in dry and didn't pull out until Ireland shouted for them to stop and punched them in the face.
@Your Waifu, you mispelled blew up their cars
@communistcat, they did a bit more than that.
@Your Waifu, Im talking about " Brittains evil the one nation in the world to expand their borders. Quick lets destroy all our historical monuments and cultural irreplaceable relics as an apology about how singularly evil brittain is." Sh!t
@CocoasBro, technically it was England that did all the destruction of historical monuments and rewriting of folklore and history first. Original Gaelic religious symbols and sites were torn down, and Gaelic folklore and mythology was rewritten to fall in line with Christianity. Anything the Irish did during their war for independence was just retaliation.
@Your Waifu, except actual people died, as well - civilians who had nothing to do with the war or those crimes on both sides. Both back then and with the IRA. And two wrongs don't make a right. The destruction of historical and even ancient monuments was performed by ISIS in the Middle East just a few years before all of this for some context. Becoming that kind of evil because you believe it's just and will somehow combat your own perceived evil is MASSIVELY hypocritical. How about nobody should have nor should today do these things? Any "offensive" monuments should remain ro educate people on why they shouldn't commit atrocities, such as tearing down monuments.
@thatnickguy, and when exactly did the Irish ever destroy monuments because they were "offensive"? In fact, when's the last time you've ever heard of an Irish person being offended by anything other than being called English?
Also, did you just compare the Irish to ISIS?
@Your Waifu, woh, calm down. I was speaking more broadly such as with the riots in America this year. I'm not going after the Irish or anyone else in particular. I just think we should all be able to agree that these are terrible things, no matter who commits them. The Irish are the same as any other human beings in their capacity for good and bad. With the Irish being staunch Catholics I'd be amazed if at least someone somewhere at some point in time in Ireland tear down or destroy an old pagan monument or piece of literature. And yes, they do, in fact, also posses the ability to get offended. That's just silly.
@thatnickguy, but your comment was a reply to a discussion that was specifically about Ireland and England's impact on it, and you never stated you were talking about the practice in general, so naturally I assumed you were talking about Ireland, because that's what all prior comments in this reply chain as well as the post itself is about.
And I'm not saying Irish people as individuals don't get offended, just that the Irish as a whole have less of a tendency to and that there's been no incidents of them destroying something historic due to being offended. As for saying they must have destroyed local pagan monuments or literature because they're Catholic, remember that Gaelic cultures were converted to Catholicism by England, and also that despite being converted to Catholicism the majority of the population in both Gaelic countries continued to believe in pretty much everything they already believed in in addition to Catholicism.
@Your Waifu, well actually no, because the comment before yours refers to absurdity of the reactionary response of destroying monuments, relics and so forth generally, while giving the example of tunnel-visioned hatred towards England. The type of mindset behind this is of course chiefly at fault for this kind of terrorism in the world today and in the past. They just happen to be on opposite sides and at different times in history. Your consistent demonisation of England whilst running to the defense of the Irish, proclaiming them as innocent angels and victims speaks to this. It's an incredibly foolish and again hypocritical way to approach things. It would seem that no matter what I or anyone else says to you, you will find a way to twist it to fit your narrative, making it impossible to talk to you.
@thatnickguy, excuse me, but the one twisting the narrative here is you. All I've done is state historical facts that you can easily confirm for yourself by googling this information or reading any book on Irish history. I'd also note that comment you're referring to actually does specifically mention Ireland, and is a vitriolic over-exaggeration of what I'm saying by a person who has multiple times in the past argued in defense of England's colonial period. I'd also note that England and Ireland have always existed at the same time in history, and being on opposite sides is a given considering that England conquered Ireland and Ireland then fought a war for independence against them. It's also strange you think I'm demonizing England or painting Ireland as angels, because I'm actually literally just stating well known facts about Irish history, such as the fact that England has been largely responsible for most of the crises Ireland faced up until the early 1900s.
@Your Waifu, ^see what I mean?
@thatnickguy, I really don't, especially because you just blatantly didn't read my comment and are actually more guilty of twisting my words than I am of twisting yours. For the record, the reason I downvoted you is because I absolutely cannot stand people spreading misinformation, and I also can't stand people claiming that actual history that's been confirmed backwards and forwards and documented in literally hundreds of books is just someone being vitriolic.
@Your Waifu, oh, but I did. That's why I said it. Everyone has their biases and yours are plain to see. A history lesson given through a biased lens is still ultimately just sending the message you want others to hear. And I've seen few with such dedicated vitriol for a particular people as you, so that's just laughable.
@thatnickguy, the fact that you still think I'm making things up because of some sort of bias really shows just how little research you've done on Irish or English history. The English have definitely contributed to a lot of great things throughout history, with their contributions to the arts, engineering, invention, industry, culture, and exploration all being phenomenal and completely worth praising. But to say their treatment of the Irish and Scottish for the better part of a few centuries was anything less than abhorrent is to downplay just how absolutely brutal it was. There's a reason both Ireland and Scotland made multiple attempts to gain independence over the course of history. Imagine England's treatment of colonial America, but about 5 times worse. Ireland and Scotland had absolutely zero autonomy. Please do some research before you comment again, because it's very clear you haven't and it's destroying your credibility.
@Your Waifu, well, you're making up the idea that I think you're making things up about history. You're reading what you want to read into what I'm saying, then winding around into "the English are evil and history supports this", rather obsessively, and if anyone dares to suggest that many other countries have done similar, or that the Irish will have undoubtedly commited many great yet lesser known crimes, you accuse people of not knowing history, not reading your comment and attacking people's character and even the character of another person who wrote a comment that you're referring to. This all screams desperate, as you're in denial of the fact that your political opinions and pathological hatreds might be wrong or flawed.
@thatnickguy, you have very clearly implied that you think I'm making things up through your claims that I'm somehow saying "England is evil", and I'm somehow being obsessive about it, even though I've never once actually said anything to that effect. The comment about other countries doing similar has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand, because we're not talking about other countries, just Ireland and England. I also never attacked your character, simply stated that it hurts your credibility to try and argue something that it's very clear you haven't done research on, a point that's proven by the fact that the only counterargument you've had for my statements this whole time is "You're just demonizing England and calling them evil". You have not once actually disproven anything I've said, and have not made any attempt to, instead focusing on claiming that I've said things I haven't. For example, I've stated clearly I don't hate England, yet you claim the contrary.
@thatnickguy, I'll even give a source to prove I'm talking from a purely historical perspective. Here's the easily googleable Wikipedia article for the Great Irish Famine. It says some very interesting things under "causes and contributing factors".
@thatnickguy, another Wikipedia article, this one being the history of Ireland between 1691 and 1800. It makes for some nice background on the famine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland_(1691%E2%80%931800)
@Your Waifu, qnd that makes it acceptable to erase british culture and for people to hate themselves and others for crimes they didnt commit?
@CocoasBro, nobody is erasing British culture, and nobody is asking anybody to hate themselves for crimes they didn't commit. Except maybe Americans, but that's a different argument that I really don't want to have right now.
@Your Waifu, *looks at videos of antifa and BLM destroying hundred year old monuments and historical artifacts* press x to doubt.
@Your Waifu, why are you still acting as if I'm unaware of this period of history? Are you really that oblivious, or are you just trying to be condescending?
@CocoasBro, those are things that happened in America, not Ireland.
@Your Waifu, nope america and brittain.
@thatnickguy, I'm stating that there's information in those articles that certifiably proves my statements to be historical fact and not personal opinion. If you don't want to read them that's fine with me, but your insistence that I'm just prejudiced even though all I've stated is facts proves pretty well that you don't know about that period of Irish history.
You also still haven't actually disprove anything I've said and instead only further slandered me, while I posted links to reputable unbiased articles about the subject I'm arguing about.
@CocoasBro, Ireland isn't Brittain, unless by Brittain you mean the British isles, which I doubt.
@Your Waifu, your the only one bringing up ireland dude.
@CocoasBro, the pic is literally about Ireland.
@Your Waifu, and being ashamed of brittish culture and history. Which is what im talking about.
@Your Waifu, And I'm absolutely right to apparently. Jesus Christ, you haven't read a damn word I've written, you're continuing to have your own conversation and slander me in the process. You are an incredibly obsessed and arrogant individual.
@CocoasBro, you're not talking about being ashamed of it, you're talking about people destroying it. Those are two very different things. Also the picture is actually a joke about England's history, specifically as it pertains to Ireland.
@thatnickguy, you're really only proving my point here.
@Your Waifu, Those two things are intertwined.
@Your Waifu, they are destroying it because they are ashamed of it and hate it.
@CocoasBro, not at all. They can have overlap, but it's absolutely possible and in fact quite common for people to not be ashamed of their history and also destroy cultural and historical monuments. My main point being it's weird to bring up the destruction of cultural and historical monuments in this context, and also not necessarily relevant to the pic.
@CocoasBro, who is destroying what? And who says you have to be ashamed of something or hate it do destroy it? Some people just like destroying things for the sake of destruction. In fact, a lot of rioters join riots for pretty much this reason.
@Your Waifu, and you mine.
@thatnickguy, if that's what you want to think I can't stop you, but you really never even made a point.
@Your Waifu, you dont have to be ashamed of something in order to destroy it but the reason these people are targeting these historical and cultural landmarks is very much because they hate brittain and are embarrassed by its "colonialist and racist" history. If you listen to them they would tell you as much.
@CocoasBro, you do realize by paying attention to them and spreading the news about them you're doing exactly what they want?
@Your Waifu, nope laughing at them and highlighting them in a negative light hurts them. Sunlight is the best disinectant. If we dont call it out they will grow and more and more innocent people and irreplaceable artifacts will be killed, damged and destroyed.
@CocoasBro, the issue with that thought process is that people like that believe the term "there is no such thing as bad publicity". And to some degree they're right, because each time the news about them is spread it increases the chance of the news being spread again, and also increases the chance of someone who actually believes that stuff joining up with them. They should have their actions stopped, but spreading the news about it does nothing to stop it and can in fact potentially make it worse via the phenomenon I just described.
@Your Waifu, the only reason it grows bigger is because the media cucks for them and lies about their beliefs and what they stand for. The dems follow suit protect them from being arrested and the members inside can radicalize young idealistic people that thought they were doing good. Sunlight is the best disinectant.
@CocoasBro, are you sure we're still talking about Brittain? Also, the media talking about it at all in any capacity other than to say whether property was damaged or people were harmed has pretty much the same effect I just mentioned.
@Your Waifu, You changed the topic to the people destroying the monuments and who are embarrassed by their history and culture.
@CocoasBro, no, you did. I only ever mentioned the destruction of property in response to someone else mentioning it. My first mention of it in this thread is a reply to you satirizing the people you're talking about.
@Your Waifu, and no the media cover for and make these people look good. They gloss over any property damaged or people maimed, injured or killed by these people and if they do mention it at all its about how far right and racist the individual apparently was. Even if theres no proof the dude was a far right racist.
@Your Waifu, " who is destorying what? And who say you have to be ashamed of something or hate it to destroy it?" No buddy you did.
@CocoasBro, I'm of the opinion that any media coverage that's biased is exposure for both sides no matter what, since there will always be people who see the news and are galvanized by the fact that they either agree completely with it or completely disagree with it.
@CocoasBro, again, those were replies to you mentioning property destruction. To quote the comment of yours I'm replying to there word for word: "they are destroying it because they are ashamed of it and hate it."
I was just asking what you were talking about.
@Your Waifu, whatever were getting off subject. My point has been and always was no one should feel ashamed of their peoples history or feel guilty for things they have not done.
@CocoasBro, true, but you also called it cuckoldry. And I agree nobody should feel ashamed of their people's history. History should be learned from, not covered up. If your ancestors did something bad in the past, you shouldn't be ashamed of it, you should just use it as a lesson of what not to do so that those mistakes never happen again. It's part of why the UK is a mostly neutral country that sends aid to other countries now, and why Germany has as decentralized a government as it can. My main point has mostly been that there's value in remembering how bad things can get to make sure they never get that bad again.
As for the pic itself, that's really just typical Irish banter with English people. As to why Irish opinipns are like this, the Irish war for independence only happened around 100 years ago, which historically speaking is recent enough that there's still people alive from both that time and the time after it where the aftereffects of British rule could still be felt.
@Your Waifu, as long as you agree no one should be ashamed of their history. Then this discussion dies here.
@CocoasBro, ah, sorry about how long that last comment was. But yes, I agree, and think learning from history is better than being ashamed of it.
People just don't want to call a fvcked up, war-mongering, slave-inducing nation what it is; fvcked up.
To this day the Queen's crown is made from stolen jewels the British took from colonies like India and South Africa, very symbolic
@Factory BOY, that is pretty fvcked up. But it would be senseless to destroy or discard it now.
@thatnickguy, nobody is saying to destroy or discard it.
@Your Waifu, and I wasn't saying they were
@thatnickguy, you kinda were.
@Your Waifu, hahaha! Oh for fvcks sake, you really are just fabricating all manner of things now, aren't you? You have an unquenchable need just to be contrarian.
@thatnickguy, you said, and I quote, "But it would be senseless to destroy or discard it now" when Factory BOY made absolutely no mention of destroying or discarding it, and just stated the irony of its history.
@Your Waifu, if I didn't add anything, there'd be no need to reply. You're not all there, are you?
@thatnickguy, but that's just it, you didn't add anything.
@Your Waifu, you literally quoted what I added. You want so desperately just to be right, don't you?
@thatnickguy, quoting something lacking in substance doesn't add substance to it.
Both pics are literally America.
Yes, yes and many other countries too, I know.
@Your Waifu, you have continually replied now to my comments and to the comment I referred to by completely missing the point and detailing the conversation into an apparent argument about history when I made it clear I was trying to talk about things from a modern political perspective. I will never be able to give you a satisfactory response so long as you're having your own conversation. Also "we're not talking about other countries" - Yeah I am. I have been since my first comment. And "I don't hate England" - Ah, well I'm convinced! So, what have all of those comments of yours insisting on the superior criminality of the English against the Irish been in support of?
@thatnickguy, you barged into an argument about Irish history expecting to get a discussion about modern politics, on an app where nobody likes talking about politics?
@Your Waifu, and yet everyone was talking about politics in the discussion except you, who mistook what we said for an invitation to give us a scholarly lecture on historical English crimes against the Irish, for reasons you only know
@thatnickguy, actually when I first posted literally nobody was talking about politics and everybody was talking about how England has historically screwed Ireland. Which I know because of the dates on the comments.
@Your Waifu, has it taken you this long to consider that the conversation might have evolved?
@thatnickguy, I checked the comments of everyone except you and Cocoasbro, and it really hasn't.
@Your Waifu, whatever makes you happy.
@thatnickguy, the fact that this is your only response means you don't have a counterargument.
@Your Waifu, you can't argue with a madman.
@thatnickguy, glad to see you're sticking with the slander, it does a great job of proving my point that you have absolutely no actual arguments to use when someone argues with you.
@Your Waifu, ok, I really don't think there's any point or principle here that either of us actually disagree on. I read your initial comments, agreed with and found them interesting and funny. We've just been talking at cross-purposes since the start, and I'm sorry that ended up with both of us being at this place. I'm sure if things had started off differently we would have had an interesting and productive discussion rather than an argument. But what's done is done and hopefully we'll be able to have such a conversation in the future.