Would hate to see what happens if something truly distressing happens to this individual.
@Murder Boner, I’d pay to see it
So what should we force all the other carnivores and omnivores in the natural world to eat only plants? The slaughter of animals in factories for our food might seem brutal until you take into account how many animals eat others alive and how viciously they rip their prey to shreds like in the cases of many raptors. If you want to be a vegan that's fine, go wild. But it's not because you're better or respecting nature, it's purely an ego thing
@The Landshark , Wild animals aren't capable of making the choice not to kill for food, humans are. Veganism isn't about respecting nature or anything like that, it's purely about causing as little suffering to animals as practically possible. You don't need meat or dairy to survive, you do it entirely because you like the taste. Killing things for entertainment is unnecessary so vegans don't do it, it's as simple as that. So what if it's unnatural? So are vaccines and every reasonable person thinks those are good. Something being unnatural doesn't mean it's bad.
@Farto Supreme, tell me, if you ran into a sentient cow that got pleasure from you milking them, would you drink that milk? It’s not harmful to the animal, and they made a conscious decision in that case.
Sorry, I just find the reasons for veganism to be contrived. Beyond that we’ve seen long term effects at this point. Your body can’t keep up.
@Cloverleaf, Not wanting to torture animals is contrived but talking cows telling you take their milk is not? Every major health organization in the world has said that a well balanced vegan diet is completely healthy at all stages of life, your body absolutely can keep up. The people who suffer health problems from going vegan are ones who think that means eating nothing but carrots and celery.
And even if cows got pleasure from being milked I wouldn't drink that milk, cows make milk for their baby not for humans. We take those babies away from them to avoid them drinking it, because we want it, and the two cry out for each other. Even if cows could make the decision to be a part of the dairy industry they obviously wouldn't.
@Farto Supreme, found the vegan
@CUNTSOAP, Wow you must be some kind of genius or something to figure that, bet you're real proud of yourself. Such a clever response too, I can assure you I've never heard that comment before. You should use that big brain of yours to think about yourself, and if you're really ok with hurting animals for fun.
@Farto Supreme, humans are omnivores, we need both plants and animals to survive. Best bit of evidence: look at your teeth. Both molars for chewing tough fibrous plants and incisors and canines to tear flesh to bits. Vegetarianism I respect, veganism is a sham and comparing it to vaccines is ludicrous since vaccines are actually good for your health and well-being. If we were purely herbivores we'd be able to digest many plant fibers other herbivores can, we'd have much much much stronger jaws, we'd have chambered stomachs similarly to cows, and there wouldn't be hunter gatherer tribes like the Maasai in Africa whose entire diet is based on milk, meat, and blood
@Cloverleaf, I hunt my meat, or get them from good farmers if Im really inclined, otherwise I'm heavily vegetarian. Veganism is hardly contrived if you watched any mass produced farming, and the conditions these animals are in. Like in hunting you shoot to kill and minimize pain, but we put these animals in cages they can't ever turn in their entire lives, continuously birthing baby's they'll never see. Your delusional if that's somehow a contrived moral stance, people just don't want to see it to justify the support of these company's. I don't think anyone supports it truly, so that's why we need movements to find alternatives.
@The Landshark , What are you basing this off of? Like I said earlier, every major health organization, including AAND - the world's largest organization of nutritional professionals, say a balanced vegan diet is completely healthy at all stages of life. Do you disagree with them? What reason do you have for disagreeing with experts other than your own personal bias? Because that is the exact thing anti-vaxxers do, they deny everything experts tell them because they simply don't want to believe it.
Sure there are tribal people who don't have access to the same food sources many other people do, but if you're not one of those people you don't have an excuse. You CAN eat meat to survive, but you don't need to, it's unnecessary. Why kill something if it's unnecessary?
@Farto Supreme, can humans digest cellulose? Can our teeth handle the acidity and wearing down of constantly eating nuts, fruits, and vegetables? No. If we weren't made for eating meat, early humans wouldn't have been HUNTER GATHERERS. They both ate animals and collected plants because WE ARE OMNIVORES. It's even been claimed by many that cooked meat is what gave us the push to develop our immense intelligence. Is the amount of meat we eat natural? No, I agree that in many cases we eat too much meat. However, meat absolutely is necessary for us ALONG with fruits and vegetables. If eating meat was unnecessary, why did man evolve to hunt basically anything that lives? Why did we develop tools specifically designer to kill animals, cut them up, cook them, and eat them?
@The Landshark , Again, do you have any source at all or are you still disagreeing with the professionals?
And again, a tribal person with limited access to food needs to hunt to survive. A caveman with limited access to food needs to hunt to survive. You, who can go to the grocery store and buy all the plants they could possibly need, don't need meat to survive. You have no excuse, when you have access to plants and you choose meat or dairy you are doing it entirely for the satisfaction of your taste buds.
@The Landshark , your arguments kinda fall in on themselves, yes we are bad at digesting cellulose but we are also averagely bad at digesting lactose. And yes you are right that humans are evolutionarily omnivores, I would not argue that humans are not made to eat meat because clearly we are, but our tendency to eat meat arose from ethical hunting like that of any predator. Our current culture has removed the neutral ethicacy of hunting by mass producing animals with no chance of survival in inhumane conditions which many can understandably view as unethical and may influence their decision to become vegan or at least hunt for themselves or buy from ethically practicing farms.
@idubbbz, I'm trying to show that we're omnivorous animals by nature. Yes we're not the best at digesting lactose because almost all animals stop drinking it after they're no longer infants, but there are many people around the world that can digest lactose without a problem. And I know there are extremely unethical practices in meat production, however in many cases the animals are treated humanely and ethically. They were domesticated to be food for us. A predatory animal doesn't care about their prey, for them it's just food, and in the case of livestock, said animals are simply food for us
@The Landshark , none your sources say meat is necessary in the modern day, just that we needed it to survive in the past. Again, we are not cavemen. It doesn't matter if your ancestor needed meat, you do not.
And it doesn't matter if humans are omnivores by nature, natural doesn't mean good. Like I said before, vaccines aren't natural.
@Farto Supreme, you're absolutely relentless aren't you. There's no way to convince you or at least make you understand that we're meant to eat plants and animals. Have a good day sir or madam, I'm gonna go slaughter a cow and throw it in the grill while I drink its milk, all the while eating a delicious salad and a side of rice and mashed potatoes
@The Landshark , and I hope that one day you will understand that humans aren't "meant" to do anything, we are all responsible for our own choices. One of those choices is to care about the lives of animals. You might not care now but maybe you will eventually.
@Farto Supreme, damn guess I hate my dog and my best friend that's studying to be a wildlife veterinarian is a massive hypocrite. I hope one day to be as good, as pure, as noble, as benevolent, as you. I don't know who you are but I know that you're the child of an orgy involving Jesus, the Buddha, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Mother Teresa. I will spend the rest of my days praying that one day, one day, I might be a tenth as good of a person as you are. I'm actually inspired by you and from now on I choose to stop drinking water. I don't want to take away fish's homes
@The Landshark , I don't know you or your friend, I can guess that it's safe to say you care about dogs but you clearly don't consider the life of cow to be equal to that of a dog, given you want to grill one up. You never claimed to care about cows so I wouldn't call you a hypocrite, but I do think some part of does care deep down. Would you really have stuck around and had this long conversation with me if you didn't care at all? Why try to justify what happens to livestock animals if you don't care about them?
And eating plants isn't some impossible task that only living saints can do, it's pretty easy. Vegans aren't good people by default, and I don't think meat eaters are bad people by default either, but you should be aware of the amount of suffering supporting those industries causes, and that you have option to not do that.
@The Landshark , meat is rxpensive. I would consider going vegetarian just based on pure maths
@Farto Supreme, have you heard of that study that says plants can feel pain?
Just a thought
And dont say people dont care about cows. Theyre fun, love a cuddle, and some attention. Im still gonna eat it but
@Codeine, I'm familiar with that study, it's a bit disingenuous. Plants are incapable of any thought or consciousness required to comprehend suffering. They don't have nerves with which to feel pain. The study refers to the fact that many plants release a chemical into the air when they are damaged, calling it a "scream", but it's not any different than wood releasing smoke into the air when it burns. Good thing too, considering that if plants felt pain mowing your lawn would be seen as an atrocity.
Also consider the fact that the majority of crops are grown to feed livestock, as they have to eat too, and there's more of them than humans.
As far as saying you love cows but still eat them, I would call that hypocritical. Like saying you love dogs but still participate in dogfighting. The dogs are bred for it, often live in suffering, and are eventually killed for human entertainment. All the same applies to cows in the meat/dairy industry.
@Farto Supreme, theres more of lots of things than humans.
Ive only met cows from family farms. Thry seem nice.
And the dogfighting analogy is a bit of a step in the wrong way. Come on, im trying to be open minded here
@Codeine, I know you are, I'm not trying to be aggressive I'm just trying to use analogies that get my point across.
Let me elaborate on the crops thing. We feed livestock food and water so that can grow big enough to feed us, but this isn't a perfectly efficient process, a lot of that food and water gets turned into waste, which is often either useless or harmful (in the case of the methane produced by cows). Had we just eaten the crops ourselves we could have gotten the full benefit from them because none of it would have become animal waste. If everyone switched to a plant based diet the amount of farmland needed to feed humanity would be massively reduced. Studies have shown that if this extra land was then turned back into forests it would massively reduce global warming just from the shear amount of trees that would be planted.
@Codeine, as far as the dog fighting analogy goes, it might be an exaggeration for family farms but it is very accurate for industrial farms, where 95% of farm animals in the US are raised. Actual holocaust survivors have been to these farms and said they are just as bad as the concentration camps they experienced. If you think you have the stomach for it, there is a free documentary on youtube called "Dominion" that goes over all the different types of industrial animal farms, not just cows and chickens but goats, turkeys, rabbits, and so on. It's heartbreaking but shows the cost treating animals as commodities instead of living beings.
@Farto Supreme, you cant just turn something into a forest. It doesn't cut both ways. Thats why australia is just s little fvcked after the fires.
But let me ax you this, if we free or kill or just ignore all the cattle in the world, all the billions of coos, where would I go to get cheese?
Goats cheese is good but its not exacrly versatile
@Codeine, the land supporting animal agriculture isn't a barren wasteland, it's either pastures for them to live on or crops to live on. Growing the original plants there isn't that difficult. Although I will admit "forest" could be misleading, "native vegetation" would be more accurate, but the result is the same. I wasn't able to find that original study that went over the entire world, but I found this Harvard study that goes over all the same points just limited to the UK, if you're interested in reading it for yourself.
@Codeine, concerning cheese, the easiest option, and the one I would recommend, would be to switch to plant based cheeses, which are vegetables mixed together to form something that taste like cheese. It's not any healthier than normal cheese, and the texture is a bit different, but you won't be supporting animal abuse when you buy it. My favorite brand is Violife, I think their's tastes the best.
Another option is to just not eat cheese. You might like the taste but is that worth animal abuse? Is the temporary pleasure you get from tasting cheese worth the pain it causes to animals?
@Farto Supreme, its only temporary if you only have a little bit 😉
@Codeine, the more you eat the more it contributes to the atrocities in the dairy industry. You can choose to not care about cows, and to put your taste buds above their suffering, but you need to be aware that it's not a personal choice. It effects the lives of many other, completely innocent, living beings. Not just from the process of getting the cheese itself, but also from the damage it does to the environment. Future generations will live on this planet eventually, we can't afford to destroy it.
@Farto Supreme, you might not be able to but i can. Half a wheel of brie is only like $10
Tell you what, I live near a dairy farm (and about 30 wineries), I'll go there, try all thr cheeses, buy some, have a lovely day, do what would make for a lovely date if I wasnt so single, and thats it. I'll send you some photos if you like
@Codeine, your jokes don't contribute anything. If you just want to admit you don't care about animals and are fine with supporting their abuse then we can end it here. I'm not going to waste time talking to someone who doesn't want to make any effort to actually listen.
@Farto Supreme, hey! I am listening. I just dont respect your standpoint. Its people like you that make others look at my friend with a raised eyebrow when he says he cant have gluten. He literally can't hes celiac.
You might not appreciate my jokes but thry arent for you. Theyre making me laugh, and your reactions are only stoking the flame.
Lastly, veganism isnt bad, just dont try to force your tasteless way of life onto us.
Actually im curious, do you eat eggs? Chickens are always gonna lay eggs
@Codeine, my standpoint of "don't torture animals for fun"? Again I'm not going to argue with someone who won't even consider not supporting animal abuse.
You say I'm forcing my ways on you, but how would you respond if you found out your neighbor beat his dog? That he buys cats just to stomp on their heads? Would you say "it's his choice, I shouldn't force my non-murder ways on him"?
Buying eggs would mean paying people to rip the beaks off the women then stuff them into a cage so small they can't turn around, where they will spend their whole life. Luckily the males just get thrown into a blender the day they're born. I don't support these actions so no, I don't eat eggs.
@Farto Supreme, you know they do free range eggs right?
@Codeine, In the US free range only defines the environment the chickens are kept in, it has nothing to do with how they are treated. They are still debeaked, and the males are still blended. The environment is admittedly slightly less awful, but still awful nonetheless.
This what the inside of a US free-range farm looks like. Can you honestly tell me you don't think that's abusive?
@Farto Supreme, I'm Australian
@The Landshark , maybe they're distressed because they're vegan, I will wear taco shirts in public & no one can stop me!
@Codeine, that free Dominion documentary I mentioned earlier actually covers egg farms in Australia, at around 23:20. You seem to be unfamiliar with what exactly happens on industrial animal farms so it would do you some good to watch it.
Although you already said you don't respect people who are against animal abuse so it we may as well not continue this conversation. We seem to disagree agree on a fundamental level.
@Farto Supreme, im just sad you didnt appreciate @CUNTSOAP joke, i laughed hard
@Codeine, what? "found the vegan"? Heard it a hundred times before, it's one of those pre-made jokes people say automatically the second they realize they're talking to a vegan. Not much to appreciate when no thought went into it.
@Farto Supreme, thats why its funny. It catches you off guard
@Codeine, How? For me it does the opposite. When you hear something all the time it becomes expected, not surprising.
@Farto Supreme, well i haven't heard it for years. Really gave me a chuckle.
I guess its because vegans arent the biggest issue anymore, to not put it lightly, there are bigger fish to fry
@Farto Supreme, all it takes is making clean kills. Clean kills makes is so the animals don't suffer. Then you can enjoy that delicious meat without guilt.
@CynicalSirr, this ideal situation of yours still requires not supporting industrial animal farms. Practically speaking this would mean only hunting for meat, which can't sustain the current population. We would still need at least 95% of the population to go vegan before industrial farms can be eliminated, that or people start eating only 5% of the animal products they do now.
But yes if every animal lived a life free from suffering that would be an improvement. You'd still be ending an innocent life purely for your entertainment, but at least it's not being tortured first.
You say you feel no guilt over clean kills, if this can only be achieved through hunting does this mean you feel guilt every time you eat meat you didn't hunt? If you do, why haven't you stopped?
@Farto Supreme, Listen Vegan, im just gonna be super real here. Do i feel like humans can do whatever they want with animals? Yeah. If we didnt evolve youd best bet wed be the ones getting eaten. Dont like it? Evolve.
@Available Username, We also evolved to realize that just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Sure, we totally are advanced enough that we can hurt other animals for fun, but we are also advanced enough decide not to.
But go ahead and openly support animal abuse, talking about how you think torturing them is perfectly fine. It's a real good look for you.
@Farto Supreme, hunting for food isn't just hunting for entertainment. That's why there is that distinction.
There are people that hunt purely for sport and leave the animals. Ya, that's stupid and a waste.
You are never going to stop the majority of people from being omnivores unless all the animals normally used for consumption go extinct (which may happen at some point).
No, I dont feel bad about eating meat that wasn't hunted. Sometimes it's good to have convenience.
You like eating plants and I like eating meat and plants. I won't change you, right? Either way, I promise I won't try.
@CynicalSirr, you don't need to eat meat to survive, there's nothing you get from meat that you can't get from plants instead. The only reason to eat meat is if you like the taste. Even if you eat the animal afterwards you still killed it purely for your entertainment.
I know there's little chance of me convincing you or most other people to go vegan, but you should at least be aware that your current actions are harmful and unnecessary. You don't HAVE to support animal abuse, and not doing it is easier than you think. Going vegan is such a small change with a massive positive impact on the world. Both for animals and humans, due to the much lower carbon footprint.
@Farto Supreme, you keep saying hunting for food is entertainment. I'm not going vegan, we both know that, so hunting for me is no different than going out to the garden and getting some vegetables. Knowing that I am going to eat meat no matter what, would you rather I get 100% of my meat at the store so I'm not getting "entertainment" from hunting?
@CynicalSirr, I said before that hunting is better than going to the store, you have no reason to ask that question. Just like I also said that hunting for food is entertainment because eating meat is entertainment, nothing more. There is obviously isn't anything left to say on the matter. You admit that you consider your taste buds more important than the lives and happiness of other living beings, and that's not going to change. I won't waste anymore of our time saying things I've already said.
@Farto Supreme, I know you said that, yet you keep saying hunting is only for entertainment. That is not more true then than the garden scenario I mentioned. Yes, there are people who hunt purely for entertainment. Same with gardening. There are also times when both are done for necessity.
I get it, you love all animals and don't want to see any harmed, but you can't throw out basic logic to try to make your point.
@CynicalSirr, The difference between hunting and gardening for food is no animals have to die when you eat plants. You don't need meat, just eat plants. I keep saying hunting is only for entertainment because meat is only for entertainment. I'm not throwing out logic, you're just not acknowledging that meat is not a necessity. Unless you are stranded in the woods and are about to starve hunting is not at all a necessity. Whether you eat the animal or not it died purely for your fun.
@Farto Supreme, you are vegan and not dead. do I really have to acknowledge that you dont have to eat meat to survive?
I appreciate you understanding that there are some situations where hunting is for survival. That's the only thing I had a problem with.
@CynicalSirr, And it's safe to say you're not stranded in the woods, therefore you hunt purely for entertainment. You kill animals purely for fun. Do you acknowledge that?
@Farto Supreme, look, you are claiming meat is murder. You are acting as if we are not part of the circle of life in this planet. What you need to remember, is that while we have self awareness to realize and contemplate our actions, in the end we are animals too. We’re not truly top of the food chain without our tools.
Besides, you can’t expect the entire world to do it. What about the Inuit people? They rely on animals for their sustenance. They live in climates that can’t support farming. Are you saying they should switch to veganism?
@Cloverleaf, I don't expect Inuits to go vegan but I'm not talking to Inuits right now am I? There are very few people out there that need meat to survive and you are not one of them. The only reason you eat meat is the taste.
The fact that we can contemplate our actions is the reason why we can choose to not kill when we don't have to. Is your justification for needless killing seriously "the circle of life"? How about you just don't participate in this circle? It's undeniable better for both animals and the environment. Your place on the food chain isn't going to change at all. You will still be a human being living the same life you were before, you just won't be ending lives for your own enjoyment.
@Available Username, your evolution point puts the conversation in the right context. Humans evolved the ability to eat meat because the higher protein consumption allowed our brains to work more efficiently and at higher levels. The illogical arguments provided for veganism is an indication of impaired thought processes. Thus Farto Supreme is correct, vegans do not require meat to survive because the vegan brain does not function at the same level as those of omnivores.
@RedKel23, Soybeans have more protein per 100g than beef. You are the one being illogical. But go ahead and keep making stuff up so don't have to actually think about any arguments.
Please god, let this be a fvcking troll.
@Lord Manbearpig, I have a coworker that is exactly like this and always makes a HUGE deal when the company orders food for everyone and she sees other people eating meat. She literally was crying after one person said the meat tasted so good...
@Xenn, It’s time to harvest the vegans for their meat. I reckon it’ll be like wagyu beef. Or at least some decent pork.
@Xenn, I would buy slim Jim’s and everytime I need something from her eat one in front of her instead of emailing
If it distresses you, that's YOUR problem. I'm still gonna eat what I'm gonna eat. And also cows need to be milked, if not, it distresses them. No wonder alot of people hate vegans.
If someone else’s food gives you distress, I think it’s a sign that you’re an overly emotional pussy and need to grow up.
My motto has always been, I'll live my life my way and you live it your way - just don't tell me to do it your way and we,re cool. This applies to all things: diets, religion, politics, the police officer chasing my car at 120mph in a school zone, etc
If my food is anything other than an animal I'd call a pet, and you get distressed, that may show that you need some more mental fortitude.
Edit: Forgot some people actually keep pet pigs and catfish, so the line actually includes some pets if they're specifically generally considered livestock.
@TheStarHawk, Why does it matter if the animal is a pet or not? If an animal is capable of feeling pain and suffering then it's reasonable to not want it to feel those things. It doesn't matter if it's a dog, cat, cow, sheep, pig, or goat. They are all innocent and don't deserve to be tortured. Why is it ok to feel compassion for pets but not other animals?
@Farto Supreme, because they're our companions. If something exists purely to produce food, then that its purpose. Most of our livestock wouldn't even exist if it weren't for our intentional breeding and keeping them alive for the sake of food. But we've protected pets for the sake of companionship, not food.
@Farto Supreme, a lot of livestock animals would go extinct if they were not kept for the purposes they are.
@TheStarHawk, So it's ok to torture and kill an animal as long as you decide you're going to do that before it's born? If I found out that my purpose in life, a purpose I didn't even get to pick myself, was to live a short life full of nothing but pain just so some other animal's tongue can feel good for a few seconds then I would rather be extinct. Consider that in the egg industry male chickens are worthless, so they're thrown into a giant blender the day they're born, still alive. Thank heavens they're not extinct right? Would be such a shame if they didn't get to experience that wonderful 1 day of life.
It's not like chickens in general would go extinct either, wild chickens exist, they're all over the place in Hawaii. The only ones that would die out are the ones that can't stand because they been bred to be too fat for their legs to handle. Those going extinct is a mercy kill honestly, there's no way for them to live a happy life.
@Farto Supreme, The current living situation for animals we eat is deplorable—how would you feel if that were changed? Do you believe in killing and eating animals at the end of their life, if we’ve raised them in more comfortable environments?
Also, why are animal byproducts bad? It doesn’t hurt to take a chickens unfertilized egg or a cow’s milk
@InsaneWolf, in theory no, taking excess milk or eggs won't hurt the animal, but the process which we use to use to do that in the modern is absolutely harmful. Buying meat or dairy supports these practices and encourages them to continue. The only way to stop this is to stop supporting the industry, don't pay people to build torture factories and they won't do it. Animals are treated as commodities, as objects that exist purely to serve humans. A farmer looks at chicken and doesn't see a living being, they see a paycheck with legs. Take away the paycheck and the only people who will keep animals are the ones who treat them as companions, not objects.
I wouldn't have a problem with someone who ate an animal that died of natural causes but I wouldn't do it personally. That would be like eating my dog or cat after they died, just weird. I'd rather bury them and let the worms eat, they won't think it's weird.
If something like that makes you that emotional...
You are the problem.
The only vegan ideal i agree with is the waste made by growing food to feed our food and then eat them. Which is why i dont understand why a dam salad costs so dam much. I can get 2 mcdoubles and 2 mcchickens for the price of one salad. And those sandwiches will keep me full most of the day and the salad im hungry after an hour or two.
@Stump, it's because tax dollars are used to subsidize the meat and dairy industry, driving the price down to make it affordable for everyone. Were these subsidies to be removed the price would skyrocket and the plant options would be cheaper since, as you said, you can grow more food with less resources.
Jokes on you, mcDonalds shakes can’t legally be called Milkshakes
Let's go tour the slaughter house friend.
I guess being vegan makes you unable to form sentences.
Bro I'm vegan and I helped cook for Thanksgiving at my friend's house last year. I butterflied the turkey. Do you know what that entails? Cutting the spine out mortal Kombat style. If I can go wrist deep into a turkey and rip it in half I'm sure they can handle someone else drinking milk.