“bUt iTs aMeRiCaN cULtuRe”
So many people confuse Roman Catholisim with Christianity. Remember it was Constantine who took Christian, and Pagan customs and made a new state ran religion, this was Roman Catholism. The combining of the two teachings is why you see so many pagan customs in Roman Catholisim.
Biblical christianity doesnt allow for such pagan customa to be practiced. Scripture actually forbids such practices.
@phalcon , so you celebrate Jesus's birthday in September like a true Christian then?
@Twatasaurusrex, there's no biblical president for celebrating his birthday.
Look, all I know is Ishtar wants me to climb all of Babel so she can take me as one of her consorts.
She and Dumuzid are having arguments over his cheating and I can totally fit time between Katherine and Catherine
@ptitty1231, I thought Ishtar was here to give me Obelisk the Tormentor?
@Nurse Joy, No she gives you Sleifer the Executive Producer
@SimonPetrikov, pretty sure it was super ultra death chicken. But fact check me on that.
Buuuuuuuuut they don’t
@JacketOff, buuuuuut they do. They’re pagan traditions, only stolen by Christians
@The Pun Shielder, except those aren't the focal points of the holidays for Christians
@Kronkandyzma, that’s true, but they stole the holidays as well.
@Kronkandyzma, maybe not, but the things practiced during those holidays are still very similar to the rituals performed for those gods before Christianity took them, so they still honor those deities and not Jesus. I'd also note that both theologians and historians have pretty conclusively proven that none of those days relate to Jesus in the way modern Christianity says they do. For example, he would've been born in the middle of summer, not winter, based on statements about the weather and stars in the region he was born.
@The Pun Shielder, *stolen, as said by pun shielder in this reference actually = also used as well because people before christianity was doing it and if minute parts of a practice can be stolen then everything is stolen from everybody.
@Marida Cruz, not true, mostly pertaining to the first half. I agree on the secound and their are secs of protestantism that rejects these symbols. The only minor thing to note, we don't know the day, we celebrate on these days specifically to honour these milestones in the faith. That's why Easter doesn't have a date.
To your first half. Missionaries would come in and preach the gospel to pagons. To ease in the practice Christianity would adopt the less destructive or more cultural rituals of the area. These where things to allow the uniqueness of the people to stay, not to dominate them. It's inclusive and shows an exceptness for different people to come together. In that way, these things do give honour to Jesus.
@Dephenistrator, but it wasn't minute parts, it was the majority of it. If buy a used car, and replace 30% of its parts with new ones, then is it a new car? No, because 70% of it is still the original. It's the same with these holidays.
@That one lurker, so it's inclusive to completely erase the historical and cultural context of a holiday and replace that context with "you should worship Jesus"? Because that's what they did.
I'd also note that the dates for the most part are absolutely arbitrary, especially for Easter, which is literally only on the day it is because one of the Popes wanted a holiday on that month.
@Marida Cruz, oh, the bigoted things said in the name of inclusiveness. i think you missed the point, even if it's 99.9% the same.... so what? Really, it doesn't matter.
@Dephenistrator, please name even one thing I've said that's actually "bigoted". And of course it matters, because otherwise you wouldn't care so much about whether it's a purely Christian religion or whether it honors other religions. Instead you'd have just ignored this argument altogether, because what's the point in arguing about something that doesn't matter?
@Marida Cruz, your going on a rant about christianity being "Stolen" because it has similarities to paganism, even claiming it can't be inclusive because pagans converted? People don't shoo you out at the door, you can walk into any church and practice the religion, that's called inclusive. Yes, paganism is much smaller now and also people don't usually speak latin, things like that happen. And saying christianity stole practices is the ludicrous cultural appropriation kind of thinking, there simply is no such thing that's just called culture. It just sounds like another person that hates Christianity on the internet again.
@The Pun Shielder, stolen by Christians? No... stolen by Roman Catholics. Christians like myself don't practices such traditions like these as they go against biblical teachings of the faith.
@Marida Cruz, historical? They had generational teaching, not written history. You act as if this is malicious.
Possibly a better word is integration for its final result. Inclusive has been muddied from the term that I know. I may need to dust off my latin again to not get into a battle of semantics.
@phalcon , Roman Catholics are Christians. Idiot. Catholicism is Christianity.
@Butthurt Commenter, no they are not.
Roman Catholisim was created by Constantine in the 300s.
He took pagan and Christian traditions, mixed them up together and created a, new religion.
Read the Bible and study what Roman Catholisim teaches. They contradict each other in so many ways.
@phalcon , Considering the bible itself contradicts the bible i don't really see the problem with calling Catholicism a branch of Christianity. Which it actually is. Regardless of your personal petty, arbitrary vendetta. And really? Out of all the sects of christianity their are i am shocked you seem to take issue with Roman Catholicism.
@phalcon , I used a blanket term. I know there are Christians who don’t celebrate holidays. However, they’re all still branches of the religion, whether you agree with that or not.
@LaDarkProphet, the problem with calling roman catholisim, Christian is that it isn't.
It's a hybrid religion of both Christian and Pagan customs and rituals.
So if you can call it Christian, than you can call it pagan as well.
And that doesn't make any sense either since it's not paganism either.
Thus Roman Catholisim is simply a, religion into itself.
No different than say mormanisim, Jehovah's witness, or Christian science.
Just because a religion has some of the same people in it, doesn't make them the same faith. Especially when they teach compleatly diffrent things about these people.
And contradictory theology that excludes others.
Eg, if roman catholisim is right, than Protestantism is wrong. If Mormonism is right than Jehovah's witness is wrong etc.
They are not branches of the same tree, they are seads that fell off a tree, and have become a new Tree unto themselves.
@The Pun Shielder, but they are not branches of the same tree.
You have Christianity, which believes in the bible only.
Then you have other groups like Roman catholisim who take traditional teachings of popes and the church supirior to the Bible.
Same with Mormonism, they have the book of Mormon which they take as supirior to the Bible.
Jehovah's witness have their watch tower tract society and they take their awake and watchtower magazines as supirior to scriptures.
Same with Muslims, they believe in the bible but they take the teachings of the Koran as supirior...
You see the common trend? All the is other groups tkae the bible, then ad their own teachings to it. And they take their own teqchings to be supirior to the bible.
Where Christians take the bible as the only teachings on matters of the faith.
Thats why they are all their own faiths. Not the same faith.
@phalcon , Christianity - noun - the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices.
This is the definition defined by the Oxford dictionary, also the definition featured by google.
So no, you’re indeed wrong. Also using Muslims as an example doesn’t work here, as they follow a different prophet. Same God though.
Also I’m quite concerned for you if you follow the Bible to a tee. The Bible is full of terrible messages, like killing heretics, owning people as property and being able to beat them as long as they don’t die in a couple of days, etc.
@The Pun Shielder, sorry, but Christianity is defined by the bible and what it describes Christianity to be.
Dictionary and google don't define the faith.
And Islam recognizes the same prophets of the bible, both old and new.
Jesus is a prophet in Islam.
They just add one more prophet, That's Muhammad.
But the moromons do the same. They add Joseph Smith.
Catholics add all the popes as their prophets.
Christian Science, Marry Eddy Baker.
All these other groups add onto scriptures with new prophets and apostles. Who words and teaching are equal to the bible, if not supirior to it.
The Bible itself rejects the notion of new prophets and new scriptures. And new revelations.
This concept is a huge diffrence that Christian groups who take only the bible and have theological interpretation differences.
Thats what makes these other groups no longer Christian.
They are all Bible plus other teachings.
Vs Bible only.
The contrast is obvious
@phalcon , your Bible also claims to events that didn’t happen, aka the book of Exodus. So I don’t care what the Bible defines Christianity as. Catholics and Baptist’s are under the same religion with different practices. That religion is Christianity.
And all of them and you share the same book, God, and prophet.
And no Islam IS a different religion.
And aside all of that, all of them are wrong. There is no evidence for your terrible, immoral, murderer of a God. If you actually follow the Bible to a tee, you’d be murdering people for picking up a stick on the Sabbath.
But please, do go on about how your version of Christianity is better.
@The Pun Shielder, clearly you never read the Bible, because Jesus addressed the sabbath. And your understanding of it is, clearly not what, he taught.
But the topic isn't theology in that, regards.
And your right, Islam is, a, diffrent religion as they take the Bible, add a new prophet, and new scripture and all that.
Just like Roman Catholisim does. The popes are their prophets, and their teachings of them their new scriptures.
Why do you make such a distinction between Christianity and Islam but not Christianity and Roman Catholisim?
Is it perhaps you see all the evil things Roman Catholisim has done, and that makes it easier for you to dismiss biblical Christianity?
Cause I find it funny, that even Catholics and Christians don't think each other follow the same faith.
The only people I find who think Christianity and Catholisim are the same religion are people who generally identify as athiest.
I know that's what I did as an, atheist.
@phalcon , Funny. Just about everyone i know, of every denomination, generally identify eachother as being Christian even if they disagree with eachother slightly. It is usually only misguided, arrogant, pompous, egomaniac little punks like yourself who claim they are entitled to deem which denomination is true and which is not. Doesnt it say somewhere in your bible not to judge people? And yet here you are acting as if you are the gate keeper to the religion. Which i find absolutely laughable. The core belief of Christianity is if you believe Jesus christ to have been the son of god and that he died for your sins. Bam. Thats the bare essential. Everything else is just so much fluff and filler. I find it funny though that you somehow believe yourself to be above everyone else and are the only person capable of deeming who is and is not a Christian. Pride doth come before the fall no? The no true scotsman fallacy at its finest.
@LaDarkProphet, lol are you just this intellectually dishonest, a liar or just ignorant?
You throw out a whole bunch of insults to someone you never met. All I've done is stated facts.
You clearly hate Christianity, yet you presume to lecture those who are of the faith what their faith teaches?
The insults you called Mr, misguided, arrogant, pompous, egomanic really more sound like your describing your self.
No it doesn't say not to judge, it says not to judge as a hypocrite. That is if your are going to accuses someone of being something, you better also acknowledge if your the same.
Also in fact it tells us to use our judgment in things.
Paul says over in 1st Corinthians, "but he tht is spiritual judges all things..."
John says to "judge with right judgement" chapter 7...
Paul also says later in Corinthians "I speak as to wise men, judge for your self what I say".
We are told lots of time to judge various situations, theologies and all that.
And no.... See next post...
@phalcon , and no Thays not the core belief of Christianity.
The core belief is that, there is a God, that he has declared teachings to us that we are to follow, and those are found in the scripture.
Being a Christian is about way more than just one little core belief...
What you said is not the bare essential.
As for me being above everyone else? Like I already said lots of people have also defined what is and isn't a Christian.
Ultimately none of that matters, only what matters is what scripted says.
And don't be intelectuslly dishonest. The no true Scotsman doesn't apply. That only matters for things that aren't objectively defined.
For example someone can't claim to be a member of a club if that club has rules for membership that that individual doesn't qualify under.
For example, I can't say I'm a athiests who believes in God. Becaue objectively an athiest is someone who doesn't Beleive that.
@LaDarkProphet, also you should read up on the roman catholic Council of Trent.
There's a whole list of things if you believe, than you are to be excuminicated out of the church... And they also state there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.
So talk as you might, Roman Catholic for 1000s of years (Trent was 1545 to 1563) have consider bible believing Christian to not be part of their faith.
@phalcon , O my dear naive boy. You are indeed as pompous, arrogant and prideful as they come. My o my. You wrote so very much but ultimately said so very, very little. The no true scotsman does indeed apply here. And here you are. Standing above all with self righteous indignation deeming yourself alone worthy of who is or is not a Christian and what is and is not the true doctrine. That sort of arrogance is simply laughable. It truly is.
You stand up there on your soap box pretending to be some sort of divine judge, claiming you alone know what is right and anyone who disagrees is objectively wrong. How absurd. It must be nice to believe that you are so perfect and true. Truly an example of arrogant pride. Your ego must be absolutely immense. Tell me, what qualifications do you have that allow this ego to have any weight? I simply must know. You have a phd in theology perhaps? Perhaps your a linguist and have deciphered ancient languages, like Hebrew and Latin? I am most curious.
@LaDarkProphet, seriously before insulting strangers you really ought to look in the mirror. You're everything you acuse me of.
Sounds like textbook gas lighting.
Please I grew up an intellectual atheist who hated Christianity.
Everything youre saying, I used to say some 20 years ago. Nothing new, nothing original. Your just repeating what many others like you have said before.
And you know what one of my biggest mistakes was? Thinking catholisim was christisn. It made it so easy to poijt to the evils of Rome and say if that's what Christianity is about, than I want nothing to do with it.
But I bet you only read what others atheist have said about it, i bet you never read the Bible from cover to cover or actuslly studied any of it.
Cause if you did, regardless if you agreed with it or not, but you would see it and catholisim do not match up theologically at all.
And why would I want to learn Latin? It's not even a language that the Bible was written in.
@phalcon , You do realize Atheists are stastically more likely to know the bible better then Christians right? You claim to have been an Atheist. Did you read and study the entire bible? And did Christians say you clearly didn't because if you had you would believe? Funny. For someone who claims to have been an Atheist, your doing the exact same things im sure Christians did you. If you were an atheist that is.
And my dear naive boy. I have read the bible. Front to back. Cover to cover. Unlike you, i wasnt raised an Atheist. I was made to read the bible repeatedly, take notes ask questions etc etc. So trust me. Ive read the bible. And ive found it wanting. Ive also read Vatican writings and dozens of letters, diaries and papers written for and by the Catholic church, as well as the original Martin Luther thesis. I am very well read on pretty much every major theology. Can you say the same?
@LaDarkProphet, dear naive boy? Seriously quite being so pathetic with your lame mocking attempts...
Seriously only people who have no logical point to make resort to lame condecing name callings and insults like you do.
You try to act all supirior, but all in all your not.
Sorry but I'm done waisting my time on someone who is as rude as you are.
I keep forgetting that it's pretty much impossible to have an intelectuslly honest discussion about theology with athiests. They always seem to resort to insults, name calling, being condescending and all that like you have clearly demonstrated many times over.
It's really quite a shame actually.
@phalcon , What i find shameful is your arrogance. You deem yourself a gatekeeper. You deem yourself so high and mighty. And the fact that a few verbal jabs are enough to get your blood boiling to the point where you run away tells me you are a thin skinned egotistical coward. Who doesnt even believe in what he is saying with any conviction. Everything i say has a reason behind it. As you so admirably demonstrated ^-^ Cheers mate.
@Marida Cruz, Easter takes place when it does because Jesus was crucified during Passover, which starts on the full moon after the spring equinox (because the Jewish calendar is Lunar)
@Secale, that's not the reason for why it's on the date it is, that's the reason for why it was on the date it originally was. The date's been changed multiple times, and has even caused schisms when it was changed in the past.
@Marida Cruz, and what's the difference between the two dates? Because disregarding Jewish leap years (which add an extra month) they tend to line up with Easter being a few days into Passover
@Secale, well, the difference is that it was originally a Hebrew holiday simply called Passover celebrating Judaic Passover, which takes place at a different time of year than Christian Passover, if only by a week or so, and celebrates something different. The Christians then took the holiday and renamed it Easter, ironically after a pagan deity of Spring named Eostre, and changed the date to the date that Jesus would have come back to life on according to the Bible. Then a roman emperor met with a council of Christian religious leaders and decided that it should be on a Sunday rather than on the 14th, as it was previously. No reason is listed for why this change is made in any source I can find, and these are only the changes directly involved in the holiday as it's currently celebrated. There are many offshoots of christiany that celebrate it on different days for different reasons.
@Marida Cruz, It's literally only called Easter in English, closest is German "Ostern", all other European languages call it a variation of the Latin "Pascha". And what else would christians be celebrating during "Christian Passover" if not their founding myth, the death and resurrection of Jesus?
@Secale, Pascha is actually Greek, and is the original name of the Jewish holiday Passover, which I assume would be very confusing in other languages where both Passover and Easter exist as seperate holidays. And Christians don't actually celebrate both Christ's death and rebirth on Easter. Rather, they commemorate one or the other, at least on that specific day. What I mean by this is that in some forms of Christianity, Easter commemorates the day Jesus died, which is most of the way through Passover, causing their version of Passover to start later. For most of the largest forms of Christianity, it's on the day he resurrected, which causes their Passover to also start after Jewish Passover has ended. However, this is only really true for overtly religious Christians. Passive followers of Christiany or people who aren't Christian generally regard Easter as more of a celebration of Spring, or for the more materialistic and cynical, a time to get candy.
Those are all symbols of fertility. Not sure if all pegan gods are fertility symbols
@meNoP, if it’s not in the Bible, it’s nothing but paganism
@whatthefrank, If it is in the bible then it is useless.
@LaDarkProphet, love your enemy, do good to those who harm you...
Thats in the bible...
Love your neighbour...
Don't murser, don't steal, don't commit adultery...
All useless, things in the bible right?
@phalcon , Those things and sentiments are far older then your bible. The Laws of Hammurabi have very much the same effect. Dont murder, dont steal, dont rape blah blah. Acting as if any morals worth a damn can only come from your fairy tale book is asinine, insulting and flat out wrong. This is not even to include Buddhism or Confucianism both of which teach about good moral living. Not that i expect someone so clearly uneducated on history, philosophy and other ideologies. You read one book about one single faith that in of itself has dozens of denominations and figured yep this is the truth. Despite their being over 4,200 active known religions in practice today.
According to your own theology, anyone who isnt a Christian goes to hell right? Well since there are only about 31% active Christians in the world, less if we go by your asinine arbitrary standards, then that means 69% of the entire global population will go to hell. Yea realy sounds like a good loving theology.
@phalcon , And just because you can cherry pick a few good ideas and concepts out of a text doesnt mean it is either true nor mora. If you are only capable of being a good person because your silly book tells you so, then odds are you are not a good person at heart. But are only good because of a potential reward. Not good for goodness sake but good because of the carrot and stick. That makes your intentions false and conniving. Good day my delusional friend.
@whatthefrank, Not even close mate. I would have to feel insulted for it to be a burn. I mearly feel amused.
@LaDarkProphet, your the one who made a blanket statment about the whole Bible being bad... You where proven wrong, but you lack the humility to admit it.
And you talk about your not a good person if you can't be good without following rules written down some where?
Why is, it then where in counties that are atheistic do they still have a bunch of laws on the books for atheists to follow?
Let's be honest, however you look at, every group of people have laws and rules and customs of how to conduct themselves regardless if they are secular or religious groups.
You can't point to one gorup and see that makes them infirior, when the group you are part of, or like most do the exact same things.
Oh, as for doing good to get a reward? You know good deeds, don't save a person right? Christians don't act good to get saved.
How does that passage go...
By grace you are saved through faith, not of works, least any man, should boast....
@phalcon , I said the bible was wrong yes. As in the whole of the bible. Just because there are some pretty sentiments doesnt make my statement wrong boy. The bible itself is wrong. Even the Quran has some pretty verses in it. Doesnt mean i accept that to be true. Tsk tsk. The cognitive dissonance here is palpable.
And you misunderstand my confused child. You are the one making it seem as if only good morals come from the bible. I mearly proved you wrong. But your blind righteous indignation wont allow you to see that simple truth.
I agree that everyone has their own creed of what is and is not moral. Thats my point. Morality is subjective and will change from culture to culture. Trying to spout off that only the bible has good morals is just asinine. And i said a good person does good things not because of some arbitrary law or reason, but because they believe it is the right thing to do. Not because they might get some reward out of it, not because its the law or expected, (tbc)
@phalcon , But because it is the right thing to do.
I know you might be struggling to follow along here so let me break it down. If you do something that is good because it is the law or because you think it is what your imaginary friend would want you to do then you are doing it under false pretenses. You are doing it not because you think it is the right thing to do, but because you believe this thing you do will be seen and noticed/acknowledge.
And i thought there were parts in the bible where it does ask followers to do good deeds? Mathew 6: 1-4, Galatians 6:9, Colossians 3:17 seem to be the opposite of what you are trying to preach, and James 4:17 all come to mind. Tsk tsk. And you say you have read the whole bible? Studied it? Know it? And you want to be the gatekeeper to the religion? Smh.
@LaDarkProphet, seriously, you're really quite pathetic with your insults by calling me boy and child...
Do you find that mocking people, being condescending, all those insults are a good way to prove your poing that you are right and they are wrong?
Like it's seriously pathetic.
@phalcon , No, i dont think mocking people proves my point. I think my arguments do that well enough. Actually i would say me mocking people can actually take away from my arguments and points. Because, as you say, they are pathetic and childish.
Doesnt mean these insulting labels are wrong. The fact that they are getting under your skin so effectively tells me a great deal. Tell me boy. Explain to me why such vauge, if accurate, terms makes you so upset? Are you really so thin skinned and egotistical that a few verbal jabs really bruise your ego that much? Like i said. It tells me a lot about you.
If you are going to act and behave like a child then i am going to call you out on it. It really is that simple my boy. Granted i am honest enough to admit that calling you names is childish in of itself, but unlike you, i am unaffected by insults. Because i know my arguments have merit. So much so in fact that i have no problem throwing insults around when i know it is a detriment.
@LaDarkProphet, lol lame as you usually are.
It's quite pathetic and illogical to suggest someone taking insult is a sing of them having a weak position on a topic and that someone who doesn't take to insults had the supirior position.
That is beyond intellectually dishonest. But that seems par for the course when it comes to most atheists I have met over the years. They all lack humility and any other redeaming moral qualities.
Honestly if your point is right, and mine is wrong, and how you act is because your right?
Well then I rather live life being wrong, than become like you.
@phalcon , I find your entire stance and ego to be pathetic but ce la vie.
When your entire stance and belief is illogical that the only way to handle some verbal jousting is to explode in the manner you have actually does tell me a great deal about your actual ideals and beliefs.
And you seem to be unable to read basic English. I never said people who take isult have a weak position. I said people who take insults so personally tells me about your conviction on the topic. Someone who is actually firm in their beliefs would not let something so petty get to them. The fact that you do speaks volumes. And someone as arrogant as you, claiming to be humble is as two faced to get. You are about as humble as any other egotistical jack off who thinks they are the gatekeepers to a religion. You are nothing more then a common evangelical with a us v them mentality and attitude.
You could never, ever, be like me. Your ego simply wouldn't allow it ^-^ Cheers mate.
@LaDarkProphet, all you are is a number to the statistic of people who openly rant on the internet with little to no knowledge or wisdom 👍🏻 in a word you can probably understand; noise.
@whatthefrank, And all you are is a number added to the stastic of religious people who dont even know or understand their own textbook. And i mean just look at this comment. It is, in a word you probably understand all to well, pointless. 🍻 cheers mate. Come back when you can come up with a better insult. Because the way i see it, you are just as spinless and pathetic as your buddy phalcon is.